D/s Without S/m Part One

Part Two Linked At Bottom

September 3, 2000
[21:11] * raven^Ron says Hello and welcome to leather and roses' weekly discussions on BDSM the following rules apply..
[21:11] <raven^Ron> you must be of legal age to participate, if you are not, please leave. Legal age being 18 or 21 depending on your location
[21:11] <raven^Ron> no trolling will be tolerated, this is not a singles night, it is a discussion night
[21:11] <raven^Ron> be polite when speaking and do not flame anyone. You can disagree with an idea, but do not attack the person making the idea. Flamers, will be kicked
[21:11] <raven^Ron> all statements are publishable on the web site, with nicks changed (at your request, email webmaster@leathernroses.com if you don't want your nick used.) If an email request is not recieved, that will be taken as consent to post the log in it's entirety using the nicknames.
[21:11] <raven^Ron> Tonight's topic is D/s without S/m...so let's start off with this..
[21:11] <raven^Ron> what is d/s?
[21:12] <MsDMeanr> Life
[21:12] <raven^Ron> Ron: One is dominant and there is a submissive personality in a relationship together..
[21:12] <ana{Cor}> Dominant/submissive
[21:12] <Qryz-mizu> D/s is the power exchange
[21:12] * MsDMeanr grinz, covers her mouth and tries to hide the impish light in her eyes
[21:12] * raven^Ron giggles...yeah MsDM I think you got it there..
[21:12] <raven^Ron> ok..then what is S/m?
[21:12] <MsDMeanr> the fun part of life!
[21:12] <ana{Cor}> Sadism/masochism 
[21:12] * MsDMeanr smiles
[21:12] <ana{Cor}> FUN!
[21:12] * ana{Cor} laughs
[21:12] <MsDMeanr> and spirituality
[21:13] <raven^Ron> Ron: Sensual masturbation??? no..umm..sadism and masochism, or sadomasochism..
[21:13] <Corgan> lol
[21:13] <ana{Cor}> jinx MsDMeanr
[21:13] <Qryz-mizu> toys!
[21:13] * MsDMeanr laughs
[21:13] <raven^Ron> raven: Sadomasochism..one who enjoys giving pain (sadist, possible to be sensual sadist, meaning only give pain beacuse of the reaction it garners in the sub) and a masochist, one who gains physical pleasure from pain play..
[21:13] <MsDMeanr> In all seriousness (no, really!  come on! I can be serious!!! nooo ask ummmm. . . .ask . . .ummm. . .<looking around frantically> 
[21:13] <raven^Ron> LOL MsDM
[21:14] * Qryz-mizu sends mizu out to reheat some pasta for her - I asked nicely for him to get it, he grinned and said no, then went out and got it - that's D/s!
[21:14] * ana{Cor} shakes her head.. not this girl.. nope nope nope.. never seen her be serious
[21:14] <raven^Ron> ok..so we have defined D/s and S/m...can we all agree on those general definitions for this discussion?
[21:14] <ana{Cor}> yeps
[21:14] <TopChuck> no
[21:14] * ananda{R} nods
[21:14] <raven^Ron> yes it is  Qryz :)
[21:14] <Sammie> *agrees
[21:14] <ana{Cor}> no TopChuck?
[21:14] <raven^Ron> ok TopChuck..what are you definitions then?
[21:14] * ananda{R} looks to TopChuck
[21:14] * MsDMeanr listens
[21:14] * Corgan tries to type faster
[21:15] * raven^Ron listens to TopChuck..
[21:15] <TopChuck> no. i define sadism as the enjoyment of inflicting injury. but i'd be willing to pass on that, for the sake of discussion.
[21:15] <raven^Ron> interesting definition..may I ask why you associate injury with sadism?
[21:16] <TopChuck> i think desade actually was into that. masoch enjoyed pain
[21:16] <TopChuck> because that's how de sade defined it
[21:16] <raven^Ron> from my understanding you are correct..DeSade was into it for more than "pain" but also to injure...
[21:16] <Qryz-mizu> hmmm....but does pain have to include injury in the current, nonhistorical sense?
[21:16] <TopChuck> but we can drop that distinction, unless it means that d/s and sm are synonymous
[21:16] <ana{Cor}> is that what your after when your inflicting the pain? (just curious)
[21:17] <raven^Ron> ok...but, and you may not agree, many do not believe DeSade was really into s/m..
[21:17] <raven^Ron> I don't think so Qryz..
[21:17] * Qryz-mizu nosdnods - agree that deSade doesn't count as S/m
[21:17] <TopChuck> well, sadism was named after de sade. so i guess he had an inside track
[21:17] <raven^Ron> Ron: I don't think it has to include injury Qryz..afterall TC you would no desire to inflict an injury on rs but the play is the thing isn't it?
[21:18] <ana{Cor}> D/s doesn't have to include s/m though. some people have no desire to inflict, or recieve pain
[21:18] <TopChuck> i'm not a sadist in the sense that de sade meant it
[21:18] * ananda{R} nods
[21:18] <Qryz-mizu> hmmm but then we can get into a definition of injury - raven, you've seen the pics of my back - does that count as injury? do 'just' mrkings count?
[21:18] <raven^Ron> well personally my definition comes more from the DMSV than anything else...and much of DeSades works were dismissed due to the fact that he had other psychological problems at work, not just being a sadist...I believe one thing I read called him a psychopath or something like that..
[21:18] <TopChuck> but let's agree that sm is pain and receiving pain and the pleasure connected therewith
[21:19] <MsDMeanr> but just as all else in our world/cultures has evolved from its conception (looking at her opposable thumbs), I believe that sadism (and masochism) has evolved from what it originally started out to be.
[21:19] <Sammie> how can D/s work without any discipline?
[21:19] <raven^Ron> since skin is broken, I would consider it a minor injury..such as brusing, but in the lifestyle, those are considered marks..not injury..in BDSM it seems injury is generally defined as permanent harm or stuff like that..for example breaking your sub's leg ..that would be injury..
[21:19] <ana{Cor}> discipline doesn't have to be physical Sammie
[21:19] <raven^Ron> ok..hold on...slow down a bit..
[21:19] <MsDMeanr> nothing works without discipline
[21:19] <Sammie> or punishment?
[21:19] * MsDMeanr sits back
[21:20] <raven^Ron> Sammie, discipline is not just pain play..in fact...d/s will not work without discipline..but you are mistaking punishment for discipline which are indeed two seperate things
[21:20] * raven^Ron scrolls back..
[21:20] <ana{Cor}> but being punished doesn't mean being beaten/spanked/hurt
[21:20] <TopChuck> discipline doesnt mean a love of inflicting injury, but i apologize for reacting to the definition, since it probably is a digression and detracts from getting to the distinction between d/s and sm
[21:21] <MsDMeanr> I would like to clarify something you said earlier, raven if you will?
[21:21] <raven^Ron> Sadism was named after DeSade mostly because he was the first person to actually delive into it and discuss it openly...kind of like stars getting named after the first person that finds them with a telescope...the naming not neccesarily having anything to do with whether or not DeSade was a sadist..
[21:21] <MsDMeanr> even if we must do it in private because it is not on topic?
[21:21] <raven^Ron> exactly ana (on the punishment not neccesarily being physical)
[21:21] <raven^Ron> yes MsDM
[21:22] <raven^Ron> was it said in channel?
[21:22] * raven^Ron is caught up again..
[21:22] * Qryz-mizu is permanently behind
[21:22] <raven^Ron> Ron laughs as raven goes to full screen...
[21:22] <Sammie> so you are saying D/s can exist without sm
[21:22] <MsDMeanr> yes, it was
[21:22] <Qryz-mizu> absolutely D/s can exist without Sm
[21:23] * MsDMeanr nods in agreement
[21:23] <ana{Cor}> yes Sammie
[21:23] <raven^Ron> to answer that..we have to delve into what D/s is..is D/s mental/emotional? or purely physical?
[21:23] <Sammie> how effective would that be though?
[21:23] <rs{TC}> we've all agreed that s/m means physical pain, is that right?
[21:23] <ana{Cor}> it's both isn't it?
[21:23] <Qryz-mizu> mizu and I are definitely primarily D/s, but we're both kinda painsluts as well...but our relationship revolves around the power exchange and D/s....
[21:24] <ana{Cor}> I mean.. the mental aspects, are very very importaint.. but.. just someone touching your shoulder, can be a form of control, it doesn't have to be a pain thing
[21:24] <raven^Ron> it would be very effective sammie if the people involved wanted it to be..and both did not enjoy pain play..however, a problem would occur if one of the people involved wanted pain play and the other did not..
[21:24] <rs{TC}> and if s/m means physical pain only, then i would agree that d/s can work without s/m
[21:24] <raven^Ron> exactly ana
[21:24] <Sammie> ok, makes sense
[21:24] <raven^Ron> Ron: my mom and dad were in a d/s relationship..my dad was dominant..his word was law..and he never once used pain to get obedience..no pain of any type...
[21:25] <raven^Ron> in most cases rs, s/m does mean the physical sensation only...
[21:25] <MsDMeanr> I believe (and this is MY opinion) that one can exist without the other. However in my life, they are two sides of the same coin.
[21:25] <Sammie> if a dom uses physical discipline would that be considered s/m?
[21:25] <Qryz-mizu> shoot....both my grammas were Domme and never used anything..mizu's gramma was Domme and used the spatula, rolling pin, etc...*lol*
[21:25] <ana{Cor}> I think so Sammie
[21:25] <raven^Ron> no..that would be punishment I would think Sammie..
[21:25] <raven^Ron> Ron: LOL mizu
[21:25] * ana{Cor} tilts her head
[21:26] <rs{TC}> physical punishment isnt enjoyable though
[21:26] <Qryz-mizu> so physical discipline is more D/s than sm?
[21:26] <rs{TC}> there is nothing enjoyable about it, it hurts
[21:26] * ananda{R} agrees with raven, physical punishment is that...s/ms means someone enjoys it
[21:26] <Qryz-mizu> since its about exerting control...
[21:26] <raven^Ron> s/m requires enjoyment from the pain..for both parties..one from giving it, the other from receiving it..not just tthe act of pain itself..
[21:26] <raven^Ron> yes ananda :)
[21:26] <raven^Ron> exactly rs..
[21:26] <ana{Cor}> hmmm.. actually, i guess I'm wrong now that I think on it.. :)
[21:26] <rs{TC}> playing at punishment is different, thats fun...but serious punishment isnt anything but painful
[21:26] <raven^Ron> it can be Qryz..but not neccessarily, as some people use it in a top/bottom relationship rather than d/s
[21:27] <Qryz-mizu> ....mental and physical pain is punishment...
[21:27] <rs{TC}> rather anything but fun
[21:27] * Qryz-mizu winces...soundinglike yoda again
[21:27] <raven^Ron> playing at punishment as in a role play scene, would become s/m because the main objective is the pleasure of the participants through pain..
[21:27] <MsDMeanr> I have to disagree, raven.
[21:27] <TopChuck> pain isnt necessarily punishment
[21:27] <ana{Cor}>  but wouldn't playing at punishment be more confusing then anything??
[21:27] <ana{Cor}> no it's not TopChuck
[21:28] * Qryz-mizu sends mizu for another bottle of wine, exerting her D/s non-pain related control over his hapless self
[21:28] <TopChuck> there's an entire area that is the D in BDSM
[21:28] <raven^Ron> that's why I said in a role play scene..like we discussed last week..like the "naughty school girl/teacher" scenario..the point is not that the sub/bottom actually did something wrong..but that they enjoy corporal punishment scenes..
[21:28] <rs{TC}> the sensuality of playing at being naughty and being spanked for that, is fun
[21:28] <raven^Ron> disagree with what MsDM?
[21:28] <MsDMeanr> <raven^Ron> s/m requires enjoyment from the pain..for both parties..one from giving it, the other from receiving it..not just tthe act of pain itself..
[21:28] <MsDMeanr> with that
[21:29] <raven^Ron> if the dom just punished becaue he wants to give pain, without really having a reason, and not using a role play scene so the sub knows it is in actuality "Play" then yes ana..that would be confusing..
[21:29] <raven^Ron> why?
[21:29] <ana{Cor}> I can see that raven.. thank you :)
[21:29] <MsDMeanr> because, I am a sadist.  I enjoy giving pain for pain's sake . . . the side effects are exhilarating, but they are just that, side effects...
[21:30] <MsDMeanr> mmmmmmmm I don't know if that is clear at all
[21:30] <raven^Ron> yes...but still MsDM..you give the pain because you enjoy it...it is pleasurable to you..
[21:30] <ana{Cor}> because sometimes one partner doesn't actually enjoy what the other is giving/taking.. such as.. Dom's giving pain simply because the sub enjoyes, it, not because they enjoy giving pain, or the Dom giving pain because he/she enjoys it, not because the sub gets off on it
[21:30] <Sammie> what side effects?
[21:30] <raven^Ron> even better if that pain is given with a masochist..
[21:30] <MsDMeanr> I use pain for several reasons, but mainly because I like the pain part
[21:30] <Qryz-mizu> am adjunct question would be - why would you ever punish someone in a D/s relationship?  clearly the person is doing their best, and the error is probably in the one giving orders
[21:30] <TopChuck> i dont agree Q
[21:31] <MsDMeanr> Sammie:  for me, it is the spirituality, the energy exchange, the bonding, the trust, the love, the commitment, etc.
[21:31] <Qryz-mizu> if someone is screwing up on purpose, and being a sammy, that's an entirely different kettle of fish
[21:31] <rs{TC}> whats a sammy?
[21:31] <Qryz-mizu> smart assed masochist
[21:31] <ana{Cor}> smart assed massochist
[21:31] <Sammie> thanx for clarifying MsS :)
[21:31] <raven^Ron> not neccessarily true Qryz...there are times punishment becomes neccessary but that is highly individual..one such example could be..the sub totally disobeys a direct order...there has to be a consequence and not everything is the dom's fault...the sub has to carry some responsibility for their own behavior..
[21:31] <raven^Ron> ok..I'm lost
[21:31] * ana{Cor} giggles
[21:31] <rs{TC}> ahh..i thought it was an ohio sandwhich
[21:31] <ana{Cor}> break for a sex
[21:32] <Qryz-mizu> but why would a sub disobey a direct order?  if it was a danger to self or others...not much other reason
[21:32] <raven^Ron> everyone is talking at once...with far too many questions eing raised..and going every which way...slow down a bit please...
[21:32] <TopChuck> how about because she doesnt want to do as she's told Q?
[21:32] <Sammie> a sub (like myself) may disobey unintentionally
[21:32] <ana{Cor}> maybe because they are scared/upset/unsure?
[21:32] <raven^Ron> the sub may be angry, or having a problem within themselves that causes them to disobey Qryz..we are human..
[21:32] <rs{TC}> thats not true Q....subs can and do disobey...stupidly maybe but they do
[21:32] <Qryz-mizu> exactly....and why would unintentional disobeyment be punishable?  its a failure of communication, not a failure of the sub
[21:33] <TopChuck> because them's the rules, Q
[21:33] <raven^Ron> now we are delving into another topic..punishment...
[21:33] <ana{Cor}> because it helps the sub feel secure in alot of cases
[21:34] <Sammie> punishment is a good topic :)
[21:34] <raven^Ron> yes..but it is not the topic for tonight Sammie...
[21:34] <rs{TC}> gahead raven/ron...get us back on topic
[21:34] <MsDMeanr> the topic being d/s with or without d/s and the validity of both?
[21:35] <raven^Ron> ok MsDM..you did not agree with my statement that s/m focus is in the pleasure the participants receive from the act of giving and receiving pain...
[21:35] <raven^Ron> I totally lost anything you said to my question of why...could you please repeat it..
[21:35] <MsDMeanr> no, I do agree that SOME feel that way, just not all
[21:36] <MsDMeanr> well, I know a wonderful bottom who would tear your eyes out if you ever tried to domme/dom her.
[21:36] * MsDMeanr smiles
[21:36] <raven^Ron> I don't understand MsDM...why would someone engage in pain play if there wasn't some kind of enjoyment for them in it?
[21:36] <ana{Cor}> because they wish to please thier partner?
[21:36] <raven^Ron> ok..that isn't s/m..that's a bottom who does not wish to be a submissive..so refuses domination..
[21:36] <Sammie> do you all agree that s/m can be used as part of discipline?
[21:36] <Qryz-mizu> because their enjoyment is in knowing the Dom/me enjous the pain
[21:36] <MsDMeanr> yes, that is s/m
[21:36] <MsDMeanr> it is not d/s
[21:36] <raven^Ron> yes ana, but wouldn't the person then gain some enjoyment in the pleasurable response of the other one?
[21:36] * LAR^ was taken away by kidling, but are you saying that D/s only exists when somebody exerts control beyond a secene?
[21:37] <rs{TC}> yes sammie, i agree that s/m can be a part of disciple and or punishment
[21:37] <MsDMeanr> I also know a couple who NEVER play with s/m, but are totally into d/s
[21:37] <ana{Cor}> yes, but that would be all that they'd get from it.. they wouldn't be doing it because they got off on giving or reciving pain
[21:37] <MsDMeanr> (am thinking on response to question, raven, not ignoring it.)
[21:37] <mystyc> I have a question ?
[21:37] <Qryz-mizu> but pleasing your prtner is a very strong force
[21:37] <raven^Ron> taking pleasure in pleasing your partner, is still focusing on pleasure...
[21:38] <raven^Ron> it may not be physical pleasure..but emotional/mental instead..
[21:38] <raven^Ron> that's the dividing line for me between s/m and corporal punishment...
[21:38] <raven^Ron> yes mystyc?
[21:38] <rs{TC}> but i also believe you can have a d/s relationship without physical punishment....but, there needs to be some responsibility if one violates the taaling and/or curling of the relationship.
[21:38] <mystyc> s/m and d/s what is the diffenence
[21:38] <Sammie> I take pleasure in pain to please my Master
[21:38] <mystyc> its been a couple of years for me, in this lifestyle
[21:39] <raven^Ron> that is true rs..you can indeed have d/s wihtout corporal punishment..and many people do not use corporal punishment..
[21:39] * ananda{R} nods, knowing Roamer does not use corporal punishment
[21:39] * Qryz-mizu doesn't use corporal punishment - much
[21:39] <raven^Ron> specially if the submissive involved is also a masochist, corporal punishment does not work with every masochist..
[21:40] <rs{TC}> whats good about a d/s relationship is that the relationship lines are defined, each person knows their role, its clear and avoids the power struggling that can occur between non d/s couples
[21:40] <Qryz-mizu> Qryz:  I just make mizu spent time with my mother...its primarily mental punishment
[21:40] <Sammie> good point rs
[21:40] * ana{Cor} giggles .. cute Qryz
[21:40] <Sammie> lol Q
[21:40] * raven^Ron waits for mystyc's question..
[21:40] <raven^Ron> see it..
[21:41] * Qryz-mizu laughs....mystyc did ask the questoin, it just happened to be the topic!
[21:41] <raven^Ron> that's what we're apparently arguing mystyc..
[21:41] <mystyc> r/s means ?????  vs.   d/s ????
[21:41] <LAR^> rs: IMO, the power struggle is still there, only difference is you BOTH hope for the SAME outcome
[21:41] <rs{TC}> how the boundaries of the relationship are kept moves into the responsibility or paying the piper area when one fails to uphold their end of the deal
[21:41] <rs{TC}> they are differnt mystc
[21:41] <rs{TC}> one doesnt mean the other, in my book
[21:41] <raven^Ron> if I have to..I will moderate the channel..
[21:41] <mystyc> in what ways ?
[21:41] <raven^Ron> please people..when one aspectis being discussed..we can't keep trying to discuss three different topics at the same time..
[21:41] <mystyc> everyone please pardon my lack of knowledge on this subject
[21:41] <raven^Ron> people will get lost and confused..and no one will know what is being said to who ...
[21:42] <raven^Ron> aspectis: should be aspect
[21:42] <rs{TC}> ok raven...should i asswer mystyc question?
[21:42] <rs{TC}> dont want to take us off topic
[21:42] <Sammie> in some chats I've been to people need to wait to be called on by the moderator
[21:42] <Sammie> ! to make comment or ? to ask question
[21:42] * mystyc smiles at Qryz-mizu and says its a pleasure meeting you Ma'am
[21:43] <raven^Ron> the question she asked is the topic of discussion for tonight...so go ahead and answer it rs, it is not off topic...however delving into why punishing someone is or is not neccessary to a d/s relationship, is off topic...
[21:43] <raven^Ron> I've tried it that way Sammie..and it did not work here...
[21:44] * LAR^ notes we Doms are too pushy and impatient for that
[21:44] <TopChuck> lol LAR
[21:44] <Sammie> lol
[21:44] * Qryz-mizu is the very heart and soul of patience...just ask mizu (yeah right!)
[21:44] * mystyc responds to Lar and says some of us subs tend to be pushy :)
[21:44] <raven^Ron> d/s the power exchange between a dominant and a submissive involved in a relationship...s/m the exchange of pain (as I define it) for mutual pleasure (whether that be physical pleasure on both parts, or mental on one and physical on the other)
[21:44] <rs{TC}> to me, d/s is about relationship the interaction between a couple, the power exchange.....s/m is the physical stuff and if it is appealing or sensually exciting, then its the icing...but some d/s couples could get a charge out of duck watching or bird watching and spend the rest of the day in bed having an exciting time...i see the two of them as separate.
[21:45] * LAR^ gets innocent clueless Masterly type look. Subs, impatient? REALLY? Who woulda thunk it.
[21:45] <TopChuck> would you agree that sadism and masochism are fetishes, kinks?
[21:45] <mystyc> d/s is mental and the s/m is the physical
[21:45] <mystyc> ????
[21:45] <Sammie> has everyone agreed that d/s can exist w/out s/m?
[21:45] <raven^Ron> we haven't even gotten to that Sammie..<giggle>
[21:45] <rs{TC}> i have agreed to that Sammie
[21:45] * ananda{R} nods
[21:45] <raven^Ron> to put it in general tersm, yes mystyc...
[21:45] * LAR^ would have to ask. Is grabbing a sub by the hair and forcing them to kneel S/M or D/s?
[21:45] <Qryz-mizu> how about...its not what you do, its how you do it?  as in, vanilla missionary position can be D/s - its all in the attitude
[21:45] <ana{Cor}> I agree
[21:46] <Sammie> good question Lar
[21:46] <mystyc> LAR Sir that would be pleasure to me Sir
[21:46] <raven^Ron> but, yes I agree that d/s can exist without s/m becaue their natures are different..one is physical, the other is mental/emotional..
[21:46] <ana{Cor}> s/m by definition I think Lar
[21:46] <mystyc> i think its all one in the same
[21:46] <rs{TC}> to me Lar its d/s with s/m because those are the terms of the relationship
[21:46] <TopChuck> D/s can be physical
[21:46] <raven^Ron> technically Lar, I would consider it s/m
[21:46] <LAR^> Ravem, what I noted to me is not S/m. It is a part of D/s because when I grab her hair it is not in a painful manner
[21:46] <Sammie> very thin line...
[21:46] <Qryz-mizu> but...i agree with LAR^ - its the attitude behind the gesture
[21:47] * mystyc thinks I love to have my hair grabbed
[21:47] <rs{TC}> i assumed the hair pulling was painful
[21:47] <LAR^> So tying a sub up, without causing her physical pain is S/m?
[21:47] <raven^Ron> ok...sorry but when someone tells me pull hair and force a person to their knees..that implies hair being pulled/pain...not just tugging..tugging, no not s/m because no pain involved...
[21:47] <mystyc> maybe I am more physical than most subs
[21:47] <raven^Ron> no that's B/d Lar..bondage
[21:47] <TopChuck> bondage is a d/s activity isnt it?
[21:48] <raven^Ron> not to me TopChuck..D/s is mental emotional....moreseo than physical...the phsyical to me is extra
[21:48] <Sammie> but bondage is generally followed by some kind of physical control
[21:48] <MsDMeanr> to me, d/s is a way of life . . .it is how I choose to live.  In that lifestyle definition, is d/s.  For ME (and others like me) d/s includes s/m.  But, that is because of who I am, not the definition (given by the community at large, as well as those who are not in the lifestyle) of d/s or s/m
[21:48] <raven^Ron> Ron: I would think bondage would be more s/m or a good start towards s/m...
[21:48] <ananda{R}> Bondage is a fetish, I know lots of folks who are not D/s who like to be bound
[21:49] <TopChuck> but bondage involves a position of dominance and a position of submission
[21:49] <raven^Ron> I agree with you ananda...bondage is basically a kink/fetish..and enjoyed by many people who do not engage in d/s or pain play...just enjoy the helpless feeling of being tied up..
[21:49] <mystyc> I agree with MsDMeanr,  its all the the lifestyle and cannot be put into separate issues
[21:49] <rs{TC}> ok, if we all agree that d/s can live without s/m...does anyone have any information on d/s relationships without the pain part and how is discipline and roles maintained without it?
[21:49] <Sammie> so can someone describe a strictly D/s relationship?
[21:49] * LAR^ would agree that the basis is ALWAYS in the mental. Being dominated, either physically or verbally. BUT, that the physical can be an extension of it. When it all comes down to it, even the acceptance of pain is part of D/s
[21:49] <raven^Ron> only for that particular time of the bondage...d/s is outside the bedroom. not just in it or during a scene..
[21:49] <mystyc> to me the pain is a big part, 
[21:49] * ananda{R} lives a D/s relationship
[21:49] <Qryz-mizu> i would have to say that ours is very nearly strictly D/s
[21:50] <mystyc> but its the way the pain is given for love or punishment
[21:50] <Qryz-mizu> and in fact, when pain is involved I, often as not, am the one receiving it
[21:50] <Qryz-mizu> but the last time I checked, I'm still the Domme
[21:50] <raven^Ron> Sammie: D/s relationship..one is dominant and one is submissive..at all times the sub knows who is in charge..and that knowledge is for both in and out of the bedroom..the specifics depend on each individual relationship...but generally speaking, the power exchange exists outside of scenes or sexual encounters...
[21:50] <rs{TC}> right raven
[21:50] <mystyc> agrees with Raven
[21:50] * ananda{R} agreees with raven
[21:51] * Qryz-mizu agrees with ravn - everyone agree with raven!
[21:51] <mystyc> its a power exchange 
[21:51] <Sammie> ok Raven, so like in the 40's and 50's where men always dominated their wives?
[21:51] <mystyc> or authority exchange
[21:51] <raven^Ron> I don't agree mystyc that D/s contains all of S/m and B/d as well..simply because there are far too many people who engage in Bondage without any power exchange ...and many who enage in pain play..without any power exchange outside of the scene at that moment in time..
[21:51] <ana{Cor}> kinda Sammie
[21:51] <raven^Ron> kind of Sammie...
[21:51] <MsDMeanr> bondage is bondage.  EVERYTHING has an element of d/s to it if you look at it (work, social structures, volunteer groups, marriage, etc.).  But I think the confusion for most of us came when the term "BDSM" was gnashed together and brought out into society as an acceptable term for what we are/do.  It began bluring the lines
[21:51] <TopChuck> there can be d/s activities outside d/s relationships and those activities are just as much d/s as d/s relationships
[21:51] <ana{Cor}> but with more consent
[21:51] * Qryz-mizu grins...yup Sammie - we're working on a relationship where I work, he stays at home, cooks, cleans, and raises the kids...
[21:51] <TopChuck> i agree, MsDM
[21:52] <rs{TC}> its differnt Sammie, in that submissives have a choice...we CHOSE to submit...a bit differnt than the wives of the 30.40 who had no choices
[21:52] <LAR^> raven: I would disagree there, unless the B/d was self inflicted then there is always SOME power exchange. No mater how localized and temporal
[21:52] <TopChuck> BDSM isnt d/s
[21:52] <mystyc> The only thing I know, its good to be back in this chat group its been a long time
[21:52] <raven^Ron> TopChuck, that is why the terms top and bottom came into being...one can submit for a couple hours and be a bottom..but that is not living a d/s relationship or d/s lifestyle..because the submission exists only for the duration of the scene..
[21:52] <mystyc> I want to thank Qryz Ma'am for inviting me this evening
[21:52] <TopChuck> i disagree, raven
[21:52] * Qryz-mizu notes that mizu said I'm lying, because I'm also throwing him out the door to get a job ("you saidistic bitch" was the exact phrase)
[21:52] <raven^Ron> Yes..there is a power exchange involved in any physical activity..one must do it..the other must receive it..
[21:52] * ananda{R} agrees with raven
[21:52] <raven^Ron> ok TopChuck..then what is a top and bottom?
[21:53] <mystyc> yes I want to know, what is a top and bottom ?
[21:53] <TopChuck> spanking is d/s activity because one is dominant and the other submits. bondage is also for the same reasons. and just because they are in or out of a d/s relationship is irrelevant, imho
[21:54] <LAR^> OK, time for us to eat. Sorry to leave so soon, AGAIN <grrrr> BBIAB
[21:54] *** LAR^ is now known as LAR^AFK
[21:54] <ana{Cor}> bye Lar
[21:54] <MsDMeanr> bye, Lar!
[21:54] <raven^Ron> it is an s/m activity because one tops and gives pain..the other submits and recives it..it is mild s/m to me..not d/s...
[21:54] <TopChuck> a top is someone how tops and a bottom is someone who bottoms. and while they do this, they are involved in d/s activity. one is dominant the other submitting.
[21:54] <Sammie> I have a question
[21:54] <raven^Ron> I don't agree TopChuck...there are major differences between d/s relationships..and top/bottom relationships...
[21:54] <Qryz-mizu> gotta disagree - tops and bottoms refer to sm for me - because its sensatin play without d/s for the most part
[21:55] * ananda{R} would like to give a personal example
[21:55] <Sammie> does a couple who engage in TPE only in the bedroom count as a D/s relationship?
[21:55] <MsDMeanr> I disagree, TopChuck.  In those situations, it is MOST often the bottom who is in charge.
[21:55] * mystyc listens
[21:55] <raven^Ron> yes..for the duration of the scene only they are engaging in an s/m activity with a temporary power exchange..in d/s the power exchange is not temporary..
[21:55] <MsDMeanr> yes, to me, Sammie
[21:55] <TopChuck> there may be no relationship involved in topping and bottoming.
[21:55] <raven^Ron> yes MsDM :)
[21:55] <ana{Cor}> how can it be tpe if it's only in the bedroom??
[21:56] <raven^Ron> I don't think tpe is d/s ana..it fits more the m/s lifestyle..
[21:56] * Qryz-mizu laughs...just what i was thinkng ana{Cor}!
[21:56] <TopChuck> we just disagree, raven. i think d/s activity is d/s and can occur without there being a relationship
[21:56] <raven^Ron> if it is only during a scene, or in the bedroom then it is epe..erotic power exchange..
[21:56] <raven^Ron> ok TopChuck we can agree to disagree on that one..
[21:56] <TopChuck> you'd like to make all d/s involve relationships and i dont think that's the case
[21:56] <raven^Ron> you would like ot make every physical activity be d/s..when in fact that isn't the case either..
[21:57] <Sammie> gotta go, Master is on the phone. Thanks for interesting chat! bye
[21:57] <raven^Ron> Ron: How can you dominant someone you don't even know?
[21:57] * MsDMeanr sits back in her chair and listens
[21:57] <raven^Ron> dominate even
[21:57] <TopChuck> i would call what you define as d/s generally as a d/s relationship. the word "relationship" being necessary to complete the description or definition
[21:57] <TopChuck> any activity that involves a dominant party and a submissive party would be a d/s activity, imho
[21:57] <Qryz-mizu> i don't think its a question of involving relationships so much as the trust you have to have for the exchange...it may be just a friend you Top, but over time, even without a romantic relationsihp, it becomes D/s
[21:58] <raven^Ron> ok..then based on what you have been saying TopChuck, you would believe that d/s can not exist without the physical play or s/m and b/d...
[21:58] * raven^Ron sits back..
[21:58] <LAR^AFK> sex change....
[21:58] <TopChuck> not so, raven.
[21:58] <Qryz-mizu> a casual encounter without a relatinship is almost by defnitin going to be primarily sensain play, and that's the point, not the power exchange
[21:59] * ananda{R} woujld still like to give a personal example
[21:59] <Qryz-mizu> its a question of the goal - is the goal the power exchange, or the sensation play?  both are perfectly valid goals
[21:59] <raven^Ron> go ahead ananda...
[21:59] <MsDMeanr> please do, ananda
[21:59] <Qryz-mizu> go for it ananda{R}!
[21:59] <ananda{R}> well, I am a bondage freak
[21:59] <ananda{R}> I really love it
[21:59] <elle{LDS}> d/s is the mental part. s/m is the physical part. d/s doesn't have to have s/m.
[21:59] <ananda{R}> and have been to meetings/parties where I was bound by a Dominant and never felt the least beat submissive to him /her
[21:59] <ananda{R}> I loved the control they had over me in a physical way because of the roaps
[22:00] <ananda{R}> I have also been bound by subs
[22:00] <ananda{R}> the same sensation, I felt no power exchange at all..
[22:00] <ananda{R}> ..
[22:00] <ananda{R}> was merely an erotic thing for me
[22:00] <TopChuck> i think d/s can be physical as well as mental. and i dont agree that s/m is only physical either. s/m can be emotional
[22:00] * Qryz-mizu nodsnods...good example ananda{R}
[22:00] <ananda{R}> however...
[22:00] <ananda{R}> when my husband binds me
[22:00] <rs{TC}> ananda?  they had control over you and you didnt feel the least bit submissive?  hows that?
[22:00] <ananda{R}> it is deffo a power exchagne
[22:00] * MsDMeanr listens quietly, sipping her tea
[22:00] <ananda{R}> I didn't feel submissive to that person
[22:00] <ana{Cor}> emotional sadism, hurting someone emotionally, isn't that a bad idea?
[22:01] <rs{TC}> yet you felt he had control over you?
[22:01] <mystyc> i can see where anande feels that way
[22:01] <ananda{R}> my husband has control over me
[22:01] <rs{TC}> i dont undstand
[22:01] <mystyc> he had physical control but not mental authority
[22:01] <TopChuck> doesnt make any diff if it's a bad idea, ana. just suggesting it exists or may
[22:01] <ananda{R}> when I had played those people had no control over me, the ropes did
[22:01] <rs{TC}> im sorry, i thought you said you loved the control the roper had over you, i might have misunderstood
[22:01] * ananda{R} was not arguing TopChuck, just giveing an example
[22:02] <raven^Ron> it's the mental/emotional knowledge of who is in charge that creates the feeling of submission rs..not the physical act of being tied up, for many people that is how it works..
[22:02] <TopChuck> the ropes didnt tie themselves, did they?
[22:02] <elle{LDS}> i think that feeling that there is control over you and feeling submissive to someone are two slightly different things.
[22:02] <mystyc> agrees with raven
[22:02] <mystyc> no
[22:02] <raven^Ron> submitting to somoene requires an emotional and mental bond...and it can exist without the bondage...
[22:02] <rs{TC}> i understand raven, i was asking for a clarification of what ananda said
[22:02] <elle{LDS}> my boss at work has control over my work environment. however i am not submissive to him.
[22:02] <raven^Ron> hell..I submitted to someone for 4 months without any physical anything beyond hugs and kisses to the cheeks..
[22:02] <mystyc> good point elle
[22:02] * Qryz-mizu is an ornery Domme at work...but only a few would admit to being submissive to me there *lol*
[22:02] <raven^Ron> no bondage..no pain play..no sex..nothing at all..just the mental/emotional knowledge of who was in charnge..
[22:02] <ananda{R}> I missed your question rs
[22:02] <raven^Ron> charge even..
[22:03] <TopChuck> while you submit to him, you are submissive to him. there are lots of d/s relationships in everyday life.
[22:03] <raven^Ron> that is what ananda is referring to...that mental/emotional feeling of submission..
[22:03] <elle{LDS}> TC: i don't understand who you were referring to?
[22:03] <TopChuck> if you go into a store and send a clerk scurrying for something you are domming them.
[22:03] <TopChuck> i was talking to you elle
[22:03] <raven^Ron> that is a bottom to me TC...not a sub..a sub is a sub outside of play just as much as they are sub inside of play..
[22:03] <raven^Ron> ok..we're going to try this a new way..
[22:03] <elle{LDS}> i think you can totally be tied up and gagged by someone, realize that they have phsyical control over you but not be submissive to them.
[22:04] <ana{Cor}> hiya Roamer` :)
[22:04] <raven^Ron> I am moderating the channel..if you have a comment place ! in channel..if you have a questions place a ? in channel..
[22:04] <raven^Ron> got it?
[22:04] <rs{TC}> what i found interesting ananada was your comment about enjoying the control the dominant had over you when he tied you up, but that you didnt feel like you were submitting...i was wondering about that
[22:04] <elle{LDS}> TC: i'm not submissive to my boss. if anything i top from the bottom :)
[22:04] <Qryz-mizu> its an attitude though... there are times when I consciously Domme a clerk to get what I want, and times when I just smile sweetly and get what I want...
[22:04] <TopChuck> but they are dominating you, whether you feel submissive or not.
[22:04] <raven^Ron> the channel is now moderated..
[22:04] <raven^Ron> right now only ops can send to channel..
[22:04] <raven^Ron> if you have a question or comment please msg me with a ? or !..
[22:04] * raven^Ron takes control
[22:05] <raven^Ron> and..you will be given voice to state your question or comment..
[22:05] * raven^Ron gives rs voice to continue her statements that were with this:
[22:05] <raven^Ron> [22:04] <rs{TC}> what i found interesting ananada was your comment about enjoying the control the dominant had over you when he tied you up, but that you didnt feel like you were submitting...i was wondering about that
[22:05] *** raven^Ron sets mode: +v rs{TC}
[22:05] <rs{TC}> now what do i do? just talk?
[22:05] <raven^Ron> yup :)
[22:06] <raven^Ron> finish what you were saying..so you won't be interrupted.. :)
[22:06] <raven^Ron> this way..everyone gets a chance to speak..and anyone that wishes to respond to you will have to wait their turn and let me know via a msg
[22:07] <rs{TC}> i was wondering about how you enjoyed giving control without feeling like you were submitting, how do you give control, in any sense, without submitting in some fashion.  done.
[22:07] <rs{TC}> got it
[22:07] <raven^Ron> ok
[22:07] * raven^Ron gives voice to Roamer so ananda can answer..
[22:07] <raven^Ron> since that question was directed to ananda at the time..
[22:07] <raven^Ron> go ahead Roamer..
[22:07] <Roamer`> hang on .ill let ananda back ........
[22:08] <Roamer`> (since i wasnt part of that convo)
[22:08] <Roamer`> I enjoy the control of the ropes, not being able to move, the sensations of them
[22:08] <Roamer`> fighting against them and not being able to get out
[22:08] <Roamer`> it is not a spiritual feeling like submission to Roamer
[22:09] <Roamer`> does that answer it for you???
[22:09] <Roamer`> = )
[22:09] <raven^Ron> ok ananda...I have some people who wish to make comments..ready?
[22:09] * raven^Ron gives voice to elle..
[22:09] <Roamer`> sure
[22:10] <raven^Ron> you can talk in channel with voice elle.. :)
[22:11] <elle{LDS}> okies...
[22:11] <elle{LDS}> ananda: is it like you are submissive to the ropes rather than to the person that placed you there?
[22:11] <Roamer`> no, not submissive to anything
[22:11] <Roamer`> I loved being tied up as a kid
[22:12] <Roamer`> it is a physical sensation
[22:12] <Roamer`> erotic
[22:12] <elle{LDS}> so in this case...
[22:13] <Roamer`> ?
[22:13] <elle{LDS}> for you being tied up had little to do with submission to anyone or anything but merely to satisfy a need you had for a physical sensation (being tied) that brings an emotional release (feeling controled by the ropes)? (please correct me if i am wrong)
[22:13] <elle{LDS}> <---- can be a little long winded and has had little sleep this week..so my fingers are a bit slow today :)
[22:13] <Roamer`> emotional release? it is was a physical sensation for me
[22:13] <elle{LDS}> well you said that you enjoy the feeling of being tied of..
[22:14] <Roamer`> that's right
[22:14] <Roamer`> restricted
[22:14] <Roamer`> feeling the texture of the ropes
[22:14] <elle{LDS}> and that is the emotion that i am referring to
[22:14] <Roamer`> le me define my definition of d/s
[22:14] <elle{LDS}> the enjoyment of it.
[22:14] <Roamer`> if that is necessary?
[22:14] <Roamer`> sometimes we all get caught up in technicalities
[22:15] <elle{LDS}> g'head...i've no prob with that :)
[22:15] * raven^Ron sighs softly..removes the moderation and says..go for it people..this is semantics and obviously beyond my cntrol at this point since there is a major conflict between understanding the difference between submitting ones body to play..and full submission of the heart/mind of a sub outside of physical play (And instead of getting ? or ! in msg I was getting full statements and arguments in msg windows)
[22:15] <raven^Ron> [22:09] <TopChuck> it's still an act of submission
[22:15] <raven^Ron> [22:10] <TopChuck> you let someone tie you up. let being the operative word
[22:15] <raven^Ron> [22:11] <TopChuck> would you throw the comments up on the screen please, whenever you want
[22:15] <raven^Ron> [22:14] <TopChuck> feeling controlled? submission. one doesnt have to submit to a person, even. just the feeling of being out of control can be submission.
[22:15] <raven^Ron> [22:14] <raven^Ron> not for a submissive..
[22:15] <raven^Ron> [22:14] <TopChuck> why not?
[22:15] <raven^Ron> 22:10] <rs{TC}> hi..you can tell her no, it didnt answer my question, just explained her interests in ropes...i still dont understand how you give control to the person who ties the ropes without submitting.  but its okay, we can move on if everyone wants to.
[22:15] <Roamer`> I regard it as play, icing on the cake maybe?
[22:15] <raven^Ron> [22:07] <Qryz-mizu> i was going to say that i was bound once, very nicely with japanese rope bondage - and there was no submission at all there, even though the Dom kept saying there was - I enjoyed the sensation, and the leraning, but didn't submit at all..
[22:15] <raven^Ron> [22:08] <Qryz-mizu> now...whether that's cuz I'm Domme, or there wasn't a relationship, or what, I don't know
[22:16] <raven^Ron> that's how I regard it..it comes down to the definition of a submissive..vs the definition of a bottom..
[22:16] <raven^Ron> yes..a bottom comits and ACT of submitting..but they submit physically...only during a scene or session..to get the pleasure from the session
[22:16] * Roamer` agrees with raven, all in how you define it and no one is wrong if it works for them
[22:16] <elle{LDS}> i think the whole context of submission here is getting out of control.
[22:16] <raven^Ron> they do not focus on pleaisng the dominant outside of the session...hence, no full submission
[22:16] * Roamer` turns it back to her Master/husband
[22:16] <elle{LDS}> to me: submission, in this context of bdsm that we are trying to speak of...is something that is given freely.
[22:17] <raven^Ron> a submissive however, submits outisde of play..and it is THAT focus of submission, pleasing the dom through obedience and such..that is full submission to them..
[22:17] <raven^Ron> did i get it right ??
[22:17] <rs{TC}> im still grappling with enjoying control of any kind without submitting
[22:17] <Qryz-mizu> or...will you define submission as service (in whatever context) without the expectation of pleasure other than of pleasing the Dom/me?
[22:17] <elle{LDS}> submission is that act in which the sub is giving selflessly to please hir dom/me ...in turn to receive pleasure themselves (through the submission)
[22:17] <Roamer`> raven^Ron: yes :)
[22:17] <Qryz-mizu> okay...looks like we kinda all agree there! *lol*
[22:18] <raven^Ron> that to me Qryz, is slavery...total power exchange..tpe..the sub/slave seeks no personal satifaction beyond knowing they did a good job and made the dom happy (which I am incapable of doing)
[22:18] <elle{LDS}> outside of the d/s world...that is not submission or at least the submission that we are trying to speak of in a d/s (SSC) context
[22:18] <rs{TC}> it must be a new york thing...
[22:18] <raven^Ron> the conflict is in the terms...bottom vs sub..dominant vs. top..
[22:18] <TopChuck> lol rs
[22:18] <rs{TC}> i dont think its the terms so much
[22:18] <elle{LDS}> Qryz-mizu: i do not think that it is possible to serve a dom/me willingly and not receive some measure of pleasure in doing so.
[22:19] <elle{LDS}> obviously, if one is submitting willingly and serving...that in and of itself is pleasing to the person who is serving.
[22:19] <TopChuck> not necessarily, elle.
[22:19] <elle{LDS}> you mean that you do not agree, TC...not that i am wrong *G*
[22:19] <TopChuck> my mother served my father for years and didnt enjoy it; or so she said
[22:19] <Qryz-mizu> mizu says that his expectations, in return for serving me, are to have a home and get fed
[22:20] <raven^Ron> anyway..we are falling into the old argument here of bottom vs sub people....
[22:20] <Roamer`> Qryz-mizu: heheheh
[22:20] <elle{LDS}> but were your mother and father in a consentual bdsm relationship, TC?
[22:20] <elle{LDS}> i am not talking about relationships that are outside of the context of bdsm
[22:20] * raven^Ron just sits back..
[22:20] <elle{LDS}> i'm speaking of a submissive person chosing to serve a dominant
[22:20] <elle{LDS}> "chosing" being that keyword
[22:20] * mystyc listens and learns
[22:21] <rs{TC}> i see that elle, but for me to understand submission i use it to look at a variety of relationships
[22:21] <raven^Ron> ok...everyone hush please..
[22:21] <Roamer`> raven^Ron: yes, and that arguement almost always devolves into semantics ......
[22:21] <raven^Ron> yes..exactly how it has here Roamer..
[22:21] <rs{TC}> i would agree that there are degress of submission.....
[22:21] <rs{TC}> degrees that is
[22:21] <raven^Ron> ok..please stop...
[22:21] <raven^Ron> I won't ask again..I will close the discussion instead..
[22:22] <rs{TC}> ok
[22:22] * Roamer` stops.......
[22:22] <raven^Ron> thank you
[22:22] <rs{TC}> no more talking
[22:22] <raven^Ron> just for a minute rs..ok?
[22:22] <rs{TC}> ok
[22:22] <raven^Ron> everyone...go get a cup of coffee, pepsi, whatever you prefer to drink..draw a few deep breaths and calm down..
[22:22] <raven^Ron> BREAK TIME.. :)
[22:22] <rs{TC}> i will do that raven, but who is upset?
[22:22] <rs{TC}> who isnt calm
[22:23] <raven^Ron> me for one rs...this has dissolved into a semantics argument of submission, submissives, bottoms, and slaves...so I want to take a few moments to gather my thoughts and see if I can't figure out a way to explain this so everyone will at least understand where others are coming from even if they don't agree with it..
[22:24] * raven^Ron goes to find coffee
[22:24] <rs{TC}> gee
[22:25] <rs{TC}> i dont think there is a lack of understanding, just disagreement and i thats tough to avoid in a discussion
[22:28] <raven^Ron> ok..lets see if I can't help clarify this a bit...
[22:29] <raven^Ron> rs, you stated you believe there are levels of submission...
[22:29] <rs{TC}> yes
[22:29] <rs{TC}> thats what i said
[22:29] <raven^Ron> ananda was basically saying that for her, submitting to being tied up, is a level of submission..but not to her anything beyond just a physical act..
[22:29] <raven^Ron> now..to tie it together...hang on people, I'm going to type my little fingers off..
[22:29] <raven^Ron> levels of submission...would most likely go from mild to extreme (For lack of a better word)
[22:29] <rs{TC}> gahead
[22:30] * elle{LDS} and her Master wrestle quite often...i always lose...but i don't care! :)
[22:30] <raven^Ron> mild submissive: aka bottom..one who submits to physical acts only during a scene or session..but does not submit outside of such a session. and the goal is not to "serve" the dominant, but to gain mutual physical satisfaction from the scene..
[22:30] <rs{TC}> thats fine
[22:31] * Roamer` nods
[22:31] <raven^Ron> medium submissive: one who submits on a mental/emotional leve, not just a physical one. meaning, that their focus is to please the dom outside of the physical arena, but in the daily arena as well, including emotionally and mentally. such submission exits outside of a scene, with the sub following all rules set forth by the dom..
[22:31] <raven^Ron> goal: service for mutual emotional/mental pleasure..
[22:31] * Roamer` nods again
[22:32] <raven^Ron> maximum submissve (for lack of better terms) AKA slave..one who gives total control of themselves and thier daily lvies to a dominant. they set no limits and can not tell the dominant no under any circumstances. a very rare thing, but many d/s relationship can grow to this level over time..
[22:32] <Roamer`> agreed raven^Ron
[22:32] <raven^Ron> ananda is coming from the "medium submissive" level...as am I...the mental emotional (aka love for a generic term) outside of the physical acts of b/d and s/m
[22:33] <rs{TC}> well i dont agree with your definitions completely, but thats really irrelevant...
[22:33] <raven^Ron> well..that's where the problem is..we are arguing semantics now rs..
[22:33] <rs{TC}> my question to ananda was one of submission...
[22:33] <rs{TC}> no
[22:33] <rs{TC}> not arguing
[22:33] <Qryz-mizu> so you could theoretically define it as bottom/sub/slave, since you're using 3 levels (grin)
[22:33] <rs{TC}> your definitoins are fine....
[22:34] <Roamer`> rs{TC}> well i dont agree with your definitions completely, but thats really irrelevant...
[22:34] <rs{TC}> i have no question on them, i may not agree...but they are fine...
[22:34] <raven^Ron> Ron: she submitted to the act..but not to the person performing the act...yes it was a submisive act, but not giving submission because the mental/emotional bond was not there..
[22:34] <rs{TC}> right
[22:34] <Roamer`> rs{TC}> your definitoins are fine....
[22:34] <rs{TC}> right
[22:34] <rs{TC}> thats what i was asking
[22:34] <Qryz-mizu> but i thought your point was that we have gotten away from the topic of d/s +/- sm
[22:34] <raven^Ron> basically yes Qryz..they can of course be made more definitive..but I don't want to go there.. LOL
[22:34] <rs{TC}> and you are saying that ananada submitted, she said she didnt
[22:34] <LAR^elle> Raven: those definitions bring a lot of questions
[22:34] <TopChuck> lol LAR
[22:35] <rs{TC}> my question to her was how she did it without submitting...you say she submitted, ananda said she didnt
[22:35] <MsDMeanr> may I say something?
[22:35] <raven^Ron> The only reason I used the term submitted is because it's the only one you will accept..
[22:35] <Roamer`> rs{TC}: she is quite capable of restraining herself .......
[22:35] <rs{TC}> thats my original question in a nutshell
[22:35] <LAR^elle> elle: i is still here....Master and i are sharing while putting together his kidlings bed...
[22:35] <rs{TC}> i understand that roamer....thats not my question
[22:36] <raven^Ron> go ahead MsDM..I'm about ready to just close this whole discussion tonight...this is a semantics argument..over definitions that are not the same..
[22:36] <rs{TC}> im sorry raven....
[22:36] <Roamer`> raven^Ron: agreed
[22:36] <rs{TC}> i dont mean to be difficult....
[22:36] <raven^Ron> you define a submissive as anyone who submits to any act under any circumstances..
[22:36] <TopChuck> maybe you could just let us fight this out (to the death, if necessary)
[22:37] <raven^Ron> I define it differently..we will not agree on this..so can we get back to the topic of can a power exchange exist without pain play?
[22:37] * Qryz-mizu thinks its very ineresting having so many couples in the room, btw
[22:37] <Roamer`> the point is to discuss ppl ..not "fight it out"
[22:37] <rs{TC}> i just was seeking clarification about enjoying giving control and not submitting
[22:37] <raven^Ron> I can't do that TC because that is not the topic for the night..however, it will be one in the future..
[22:37] <MsDMeanr> My comment is thus . . .  I feel that trying to define submission is like trying to define "love."  It can't be done.  To each individual, it means something just a bit different.  Instead of discussing what is and is not submission (for to me it is something other than it is to elle or Lar or Corgan or rs, etc.) why not agree that we each have a differing opinion?
[22:37] <MsDMeanr> That being said . . .
[22:38] <TopChuck> i dont think i can agree to disagree, MsDM
[22:38] * TopChuck smiles
[22:38] <MsDMeanr> if we each have a differing opinion of what submission (dominance, sadism, etc.) is, we can perhaps agree that we each have a different idea of whether or not d/s can or cannot exist without s/m.
[22:38] <raven^Ron> ok..then..with that said TC..I close the discussion for the night..

To View Part II Click HERE