Presentation and Discussion: Common Myths Of BDSM Slaves and Slavery by Raven Shadowborne and DarkCzar Part 1
January 28, 2006 7:ooPM Central

[19:01] <cajunrose> ok everyone
[19:01] <cajunrose> we are glad you are all here at ATR
[19:02] <cajunrose> and I want to welcome and thank my friend raven{Az}
[19:02] <cajunrose> for doing this presentation
[19:02] * cajunrose gets her note pad out with pen in hand
[19:03] <raven{Az}> Thank you all for coming. Please bear with me, it has been a while since I have done this and I am nervous.
[19:03] <raven{Az}> Thank you Stormdncr and cajunrose for having me here. I appreciate it. :)
[19:04] <raven{Az}> We have chosen to do this in the following manner. Because of the nature of this particular essay and its length, we are going to open to Q&A after each myth. This it to help people not get confused or lose the comment/question they may have on a specific myth.
[19:04] <raven{Az}> Also, I will be placing this log on the Leather and Roses web site. If anyone wishes their nickname to be changed, please email me and let me know. I will be happy to protect your anonymity. ravenshad@knology.net is my email address.
[19:05] <raven{Az}> here we go..
[19:05] <raven{Az}> Common Myths Of BDSM Slaves and Slavery
[19:05] <raven{Az}> Author: Raven Shadowborne © 2005
[19:05] <raven{Az}> Myths are created for many different reasons. Some reasons are:
[19:06] <raven{Az}> 1. Myths can be created by people who have one or two facts, or part of a fact and then fill in the blanks by themselves
[19:06] <raven{Az}> 2. Some are created as a source of amusement and entertainment by an author or reader.
[19:06] <raven{Az}> 3. Some are created simply by how a story changes when it goes from ear to mouth to ear, as anyone who has ever played "post office" can attest to.
[19:06] <raven{Az}> 4.Some are created when one instance or experience becomes verbally generalized to apply to everyone.
[19:07] <raven{Az}> 5.Some are a result of mere acceptance of what one has been told, without any basis in facts of substance. Such myths are usually based purely on conjecture, supposition, and hearsay.
[19:08] <raven{Az}> Myths about bdsm are just as prevalent. The most common reason for a myth to form about bdsm is a lack of experience or knowledge on a specific topic. Rather than learning more before educating others, some people pass along
[19:08] <raven{Az}> myths as facts. Some people will assume they know more than they do and either deliberately or inadvertently create a myth to fit or expand their knowledge or to appear more knowledgeable than they truly are.
[19:08] <raven{Az}> Others create myths to deter people from engaging in a bdsm activity that they find objectionable.
[19:09] <raven{Az}> Many myths exist about slaves. These myths are created due to fear, lack of knowledge or understanding, or mere complacency. In some cases these myths are a deliberate choice to not learn the truth about slaves
[19:10] <raven{Az}> or to undermine the value of slaves or created out of simple laziness and refusal to learn more about slaves. People pass these myths along to others as factual information and perpetuate the cycle of intolerance and ignorance
[19:10] <raven{Az}> that surrounds slaves and slavery. This creates more myths, misunderstandings and miscommunications as time goes on.
[19:11] <raven{Az}> The most common myths about slaves, in master/slave based bdsm relationships, which I have heard, are included in this article and followed by the truth (as I understand it) behind each myth.
[19:11] <raven{Az}> These truths are based on my experiences as a slave, and on many discussions I have held with other slaves in order to gain understanding of the variances in slaves and slavery.
[19:12] <raven{Az}> Myth 1a: Slaves are, and should be, doormats and do not express themselves openly.
[19:12] <raven{Az}> Truth: Doormat is a term often used to deride slaves. It means that a slave lets himself or herself be walked on and they have no thoughts or opinions of their
[19:12] <raven{Az}> own. Also, it can mean that if the slave does have opinions/thoughts of their own, they won’t express them. The doormat
[19:12] <raven{Az}> slave generally does not give feedback to their owner. Some owners prefer slaves like this.
[19:13] <raven{Az}> For the majority of slaves, this is not true. Slaves have just as many thoughts and opinions as other people do. Many owners take pride in having a slave who has well thought
[19:14] <raven{Az}> out opinions and who is capable of thinking for them selves. They can provide the owner with much needed input that the owner can use to make informed decisions for both the slave
[19:14] <raven{Az}> and the relationship. Also, slaves who can think for them selves are more capable of handling responsibilities the owner gives them without needing constant supervision and
[19:14] <raven{Az}> they provide intelligent and challenging conversations to the owner.
[19:15] <raven{Az}> Many master / slave relationships have rules that govern how and when a slave can tell their owner of their thoughts, feelings and opinions. Despite the variations in this area,
[19:15] <raven{Az}> every relationship requires such input from the slave. Owners often value a slave who thinks for themselves and find such a slave to be more pleasing.
[19:16] <raven{Az}> any questions on myth 1a?
[19:17] <cajunrose> in your opinion is the doormat slave more prone to a TPE
[19:17] <cajunrose> then other slaves?
[19:17] <raven{Az}> in my experiences and understanding, no they are not cajunrose. From what I have seen, they are more prone to unsatisfactory relationships because they spend so much time hiding their own needs, wants or opinions etc.
[19:18] <raven{Az}> however, there are some who are quite happy with such a relationship as well.
[19:18] <cajunrose> are they more prone to not understand what a slave is and thus easier prey for gamers?
[19:18] <raven{Az}> they are often easier prey for both gamers and abusers from what I have seen, yes.
[19:19] <raven{Az}> their levels of understanding what it means to be a slave, seems to vary however.
[19:21] <cajunrose> so the discussion of a slave and her Master you mentioned
[19:21] <cajunrose> is that negotiated up front like when, how and so the doormat misses all of that part?
[19:21] <cajunrose> the myth of a "doormat slave"
[19:22] <raven{Az}> negotiations and such should take place before the collar is placed. Some of the "doormats" (for lack of a better word)..do seem to miss it entirely...but many just agree to whatever the prospective dominant says..
[19:22] <cajunrose> but in real M/s the "doormat" is rare
[19:22] <cajunrose> and us that have opinions are more common
[19:22] <raven{Az}> yes it is rare in my experience..most of us are far from doormats
[19:23] * cajunrose looks at Storm to see if he agrees with that
[19:23] * AAhhzz nods,....thank goodness...
[19:23] * raven{Az} nods..yes...that gets made clear further on
[19:23] * Stormdncr mumbles...that ain’t no joke
[19:23] <raven{Az}> in my experiences, most owners would go nuts with a doormat slave.
[19:24] <raven{Az}> they don't want slaves that have no opinions or thoughts of their own..they don't want slaves that just blindly obey every little thing without any questions or concerns. They prefer slaves who have opinions, and are willing to state their concerns or occasionaly have questions regarding an order or action
[19:24] * AAhhzz grins.....Just no fun to have someone that has no opinions of thier own.....boring really....
[19:24] * shewolf{AF|MsJ} nods in agreement with raven{Az} on and if allowed to expand on her agreeing
[19:24] <cajunrose> please do shewolf{AF|MsJ}
[19:24] <raven{Az}> sure shewolf{AF|MsJ}..expand
[19:24] * raven{Az} smiles
[19:25] <Nemesys> Or perhaps in reverse, an owner who is nuts in the first place is someone that a doormat had best well avoid.
[19:26] <raven{Az}> oh yes Master Nemesys! slaves need to know that they do have the option to not submit..they don't have to just accept a collar from anyone that comes along. They have the power to say no. Even a slave who is collared, does have the option to leave.
[19:26] <shewolf{AF|MsJ}> i have been a Domme in rl for 20 to my gf, we are celebrating 25 years of living together this august and i also am a sub for for almost 5 years now
[19:26] <raven{Az}> Congratulations :)
[19:27] <AAhhzz> Congradulations shewolf{AF|MsJ}
[19:27] <shewolf{AF|MsJ}> and i have some girls collared to me online and i lay out on how i Domme and some Dom/mes don't get it
[19:28] <shewolf{AF|MsJ}> i like to have a sub be her own person and i also don't want nor will ever treat them as doormats, and i also gave them rights
[19:28] <shewolf{AF|MsJ}> ty raven{Az}
[19:28] <shewolf{AF|MsJ}> and ty AAhhzz
[19:28] <shewolf{AF|MsJ}> if i may continue
[19:28] <AAhhzz> Your welcome shewolf{AF|MsJ}
[19:29] <raven{Az}> that is what I have seen to be most common in both d/s relationships and m/s ones...the number of rights vary with each relationship, but very very few give the slave or sub no rights at all.
[19:29] <shewolf{AF|MsJ}> those rights are that they will be be treated by me as person 1st and always
[19:29] <raven{Az}> though..some m/s relationships term them as luxuries rather than rights..with the excpetion of the "right to leave"
[19:30] <cajunrose> any other questions or comments on the part before we move on to the next section
[19:30] <cajunrose> ok
[19:30] <cajunrose> next section then?
[19:30] <raven{Az}> okey dokey
[19:30] <shewolf{AF|MsJ}> i don't hold my girls if they need or want to leave they are free to as they have their own minds and feelings but they stay as they know i am as real hear as in rl
[19:31] <shewolf{AF|MsJ}> please do raven{Az}
[19:31] <raven{Az}> that is the best way to do it, in my experioences shewolf :)
[19:31] <raven{Az}> okay :)
[19:31] <raven{Az}> Myth 1b: All slaves blindly obey anyone, including their owner.
[19:32] <raven{Az}> Obedience is a requirement for a slave and is pleasing to an owner. However it is not true that a slave will obey anyone that comes along. Slaves must obey the rules and expectations of their
[19:32] <raven{Az}> owner to the best of their abilities. Sometimes this means submitting to and obeying another, but such is always done by order of the owner and not every owner will share their slave this way.
[19:32] <raven{Az}> end myth 1B..
[19:33] <raven{Az}> questions or comments?
[19:33] <cajunrose> well most here know i don't blindly follow
[19:33] <cajunrose> lol
[19:33] * raven{Az} giggles..
[19:33] * cajunrose looks at Storm
[19:34] <raven{Az}> me either most of the time
[19:34] <Stormdncr> she sorta meanders around...I wont mention the fridge vs microwave *G*
[19:34] <marlene> Ack! Blind faith or obedience is not something i can do...
[19:35] <cajunrose> i think blind obedience
[19:35] <Nemesys> Well, maybe if she's leashed and blindfolded...
[19:35] <cajunrose> is a bad mix
[19:35] <shewolf{AF|MsJ}> i agree raven{Az} slaves are not as they seem their submission runs deeper but also have their limits tested and if the Dominant discovers things the slave doesn't like then it beconmes a hard limit
[19:35] <cajunrose> and opens up the door to abuse
[19:35] <raven{Az}> well..for many slaves ..the limits, if there are any (and there usually are) are set by the dominant..not the slave..so that gets a tad tricky..
[19:36] <shewolf{AF|MsJ}> and they are not about to obey blindly either
[19:36] <raven{Az}> it is why knowing what one is getting into is so important with an m/s relationship..
[19:36] <AAhhzz> Blind anything is not a reasonable act.....it makes a person actively Not think...not a good thing in my humble opinion
[19:36] <shewolf{AF|MsJ}> case in point my girl joselyn{K`L}
[19:36] <shewolf{AF|MsJ}> we have been together for almost 4 years online
[19:36] <raven{Az}> some things i do not like, I am still required to do. there is a difference between not liking something and having it be a hard limit..
[19:36] <cajunrose> i agree AAhhzz
[19:37] <raven{Az}> I agree my Master :)
[19:37] <shewolf{AF|MsJ}> and i don't give commands that i myself will never do
[19:37] <shewolf{AF|MsJ}> i tell her she is a person to me 1st and always and
[19:39] <cajunrose> anything else on this myth before we go on?
[19:39] <marlene> Then if one is asked (or told) to act on "blind faith" one should tell the person to go fly?? IN a nice way of course...
[19:39] <raven{Az}> shall I move to myth 1C? its a long one..and ends with a conclusion for all parts of myth 1..
[19:39] <raven{Az}> depends..each situation is different marlene
[19:39] <raven{Az}> for example..if Master and I were at a munch or other gathering and he asked me or ordered me to do something..I would be expected to obey, unless my concern were of a specific nature (such as a health concern)
[19:40] <shewolf{AF|MsJ}> agreed but i don't nor ever will give any unreasonable commands
[19:40] <raven{Az}> however, if someone I do not know were to come up to me and order me to do something..I have the option to say no..provided Master has not ordered me to obey that person
[19:40] <marlene> i see.. Well this was something i had to deal with in a relationship that just ended and it left me rather unsure of a lot of things.
[19:40] <raven{Az}> usually such areas are discussed before hand..so the slave is well aware of what will be expected in certain situations..
[19:41] <cajunrose> for those of you that did not know wynter is in the U. K.
[19:41] <raven{Az}> my experience with m/s relationships has been that a slave has the option to ask questions and give feedback to the dominant...within whatever agreed upon guidelines set up for that..
[19:41] <Aaron> agreed raven{Az} that is a good point
[19:41] * AAhhzz nods.....One Hopes that the slave CAN trust the Master to always keep thier well being in mind....but the slave should at the very least think about whats being asked of them and if it causes a concern bring it up with thier Master/Mistress...
[19:41] <shewolf{AF|MsJ}> agreed raven{Az} even joselyn has the right to say no to anyone and she ualways does as she will only obey me and tore a Dominant apart for jumping on me
[19:41] <raven{Az}> some require that the slave request "permission to speak freely"..others do not require such formalities..
[19:42] <raven{Az}> but every m/s relationship I have seen, and consider to be healthy, allows a slave to speak their concerns or questions..
[19:42] <raven{Az}> I do cover this specific topic in myth ..8 I believe it is :)
[19:42] <cajunrose> good
[19:42] <cajunrose> ready for the next one everyone?
[19:42] <shewolf{AF|MsJ}> joselyn knows i like to hear what's on her mind all the time as communicationsis important
[19:43] <raven{Az}> Myth 1C: All slaves are the same and have no sense of self and self worth.
[19:43] <raven{Az}> This myth is one that is often used to put down slaves. They are called robots, “Stepford slaves” or cookie cutter slaves. Despite the many similarities between slaves, once you get
[19:44] <raven{Az}> beyond these surface similarities differences become apparent. Slaves are human beings and as such there are just as many variations in personality, interests, behaviors, etc. in a group
[19:45] <raven{Az}> of slaves as there are in other group. On top of these human variations, slaves vary in bdsm areas as well. For example: The desire to please others is a similarity between slaves. However, the intensity
[19:45] <raven{Az}> , reason behind it, and expression of this desire differs from one slave to another. The same can be said for most, if not all, of the personality traits found in slaves. It is these variations that
[19:46] <raven{Az}> make each slave different. They also make which relationship type and owner that works for them, different. If slaves were
[19:47] <raven{Az}> all the same, there would be no need for compatibility discussions or any of the other things that should be done before
[19:47] <raven{Az}> a commitment is made. Any slave would do for any owner if we were all the same. It is these very differences that make a slave right for one owner and wrong for another, and make growth possible.
[19:48] <raven{Az}> Being a slave does not erase individuality. Instead, it enhances it. Often slaves who are unowned must hide or exert a lot of control over their submissive and service based nature.
[19:48] <raven{Az}> Society does not approve of people who are submissive or people who are happiest when they serve another before themselves. The very nature of a master / slave relationship allows a slave the freedom
[19:48] <raven{Az}> to express every part of their personality and hide nothing. It encourages the slave to grow as both an individual and a slave. Every slave is different; with different likes, dislikes, wants, needs etc.
[19:49] <raven{Az}> A slave must have a good working knowledge of who they are and what their wants, needs, expectations etc. are. It is impossible for a person who does not know who and what they are to give those
[19:49] <raven{Az}> things over to the control of another because you cannot give away what you do not have or know. A slave and their owner use this self-awareness to help the slave grow and to make changes in
[19:49] <raven{Az}> the slave’s behavior and mental state. Often these changes are discussed before the slave submits by the prospective owner telling the slave their expectations of the slave (including behaviors
[19:50] <raven{Az}> they want and those they do not want). This allows the slave to decide if this is how they want to be, the relationship they want to be in, and gives them a chance to consent. These changes
[19:50] <raven{Az}> are beneficial to the slave, helping them to be more of the person they want to be and to be more pleasing to their owner. Master / slave relationships require the same kinds of compatibility as
[19:50] <raven{Az}> vanilla relationships with the addition of bdsm compatibility. In order to achieve this, the slaves must know themselves well and have a strong belief in themselves.
[19:51] <raven{Az}> that is the end of myth 1 in it's entirety..questions or comments please?
[19:51] <shewolf{AF|MsJ}> ohhhhh boy is thatmyth way off base my joselyn though a slave and my pet knows her self worth and also knows i know rl always priority over irc
[19:51] * AAhhzz whispers to shewolf{AF|MsJ}.....One of the reasons its included in the myths.....
[19:51] <raven{Az}> it is a common myth and a common insult thrown at slaves...I've had it thrown at me many many times
[19:51] <AAhhzz> Just not true....
[19:52] <shewolf{AF|MsJ}> she also knows what i expect of her as a slave
[19:52] <marlene> Then a person that has self esteem issues probablly shouldn't think about entering into a D/s or M/s relationship at all??
[19:52] <raven{Az}> I would say so marlene...but it depends on how intense those issues are
[19:52] <Stormdncr> not necessaritly, marlene....
[19:52] <shewolf{AF|MsJ}> she and i discuss things all the time as she is an intelligent business woman
[19:52] <cajunrose> i think they should go slow
[19:52] <raven{Az}> someone who is the way I was 4 years ago...no they should not enter into a collar..
[19:53] <raven{Az}> they should go slow..while working on repairing their mental health
[19:53] <Stormdncr> if they happen to get a good Owner, who can help them with the self esteem, it can be good
[19:53] <cajunrose> like i came very "jumbled" into meeting Storm
[19:53] * raven{Az} nods nods nods in agreement with Stormdncr
[19:53] <shewolf{AF|MsJ}> yepper
[19:53] <cajunrose> and we had to work through a lot
[19:53] <cajunrose> that is the negotiation
[19:53] <cajunrose> and lots of talk marlene
[19:53] * AAhhzz smiles...I wouldnt go that far...but a Master accepting a slave with issues like those should have as thier first goal helping the slave grow through those issues.....Then see where things go....
[19:53] <cajunrose> not just jumping into one to not be alone
[19:53] <shewolf{AF|MsJ}> i had 1 girl that was hurt on Gor and i turned her around completely
[19:53] <kysha> if the right Owner can help with the self esteem .. and turn things around
[19:54] <shewolf{AF|MsJ}> ohh yes my rl gf was like that
[19:54] <Stormdncr> yes, it should be slow, steady. The collar should come later, much later, and not as a goal but as a end of one journey and beginning of another, after the healing and growing.
[19:55] <shewolf{AF|MsJ}> i turned her around completelly
[19:55] <shewolf{AF|MsJ}> and i helped her heal
[19:55] <raven{Az}> you did that for me Master and I can't tell you how much I appreciate your patience, understanding and tolerance while we worked through it all..
[19:55] <raven{Az}> yes Stormdncr..I agree
[19:55] <marlene> Ah.. thanks. lol i have a loooooooot of work to do, i guess.
[19:55] * AAhhzz chuckles....My pleasure love.....literally....LOL
[19:55] <raven{Az}> problem is shewolf{AF|MsJ}...one should not see a bdsm relationship of any type as a therapy..
[19:55] <raven{Az}> it just does not work for many people
[19:56] <raven{Az}> rather than help..in many many cases..it makes it worse
[19:56] <shewolf{AF|MsJ}> my gf had a lot of issues and i really worked with her
[19:56] * raven{Az} winks to Master..mine also
[19:56] <cajunrose> on a funny note to all of this
[19:56] <raven{Az}> I did too marlene..I was destroyed back in 2000...there was no "raven" anymore..not the way I used to be..
[19:56] <AAhhzz> Sometimes Stormdncr a collar is a necessary step in getting them over thier issues....it shows that you value them...it shows your concern and care for them....not in all cases...but in some...
[19:56] <cajunrose> Storm and i were friends first for over a year
[19:56] <raven{Az}> I'm not saying that one can't ever have a relationship while dealing with issues..
[19:56] <cajunrose> then we negotiated for 3 months
[19:57] <cajunrose> finally he told me
[19:57] <raven{Az}> just that the relationship (bdsm or not) can't be looked at as a way to "fix" those issues
[19:57] <cajunrose> rose i accept all 38 points
[19:57] <cajunrose> but i have the right to change, delete, add or whatever when i want to
[19:57] <cajunrose> i was like
[19:57] <cajunrose> duh
[19:57] <cajunrose> why did we just go through all of this
[19:57] <raven{Az}> we started d/s Master..and worked from there...allowing me the freedom to give up control as I healed the issues..until I reached the point where I could comfortably give it all ...
[19:57] <Stormdncr> true, AAhhzz, but that should be decided later on, not from the beginning.
[19:57] <cajunrose> so i could get back in touch with my own submission
[19:58] <cajunrose> and he knew me very well
[19:58] <shewolf{AF|MsJ}> raven{Az} i really got her back together
[19:58] <raven{Az}> in that way..the collar and relationship were an "aid" to healing..not used as therapy
[19:58] <raven{Az}> that's great shewolf{AF|MsJ}...you are lucky then...there are not many I have seen who could do that..
[19:58] * raven{Az} nods nods nods to cajunrose
[19:58] <Nemesys> In my opinion, a bdsm relationship on either side should be entered into as a reflection of a person's strengths, not as a reflection of their weaknesses. BDSM cannot make someone whole, but it can greatly enhance the qualities they already firmly own..
[19:59] <marlene> i "trusted" someone that claimed to be a Master for over 5 years. we kept talking about actually meeting, but never did. To make a very long story short, i ended up doing something that i never would have though would cause a problem and it ended up making him totally irritate at me.
[19:59] <raven{Az}> yes Master Nemesys..I agree with that for most situations..:)
[19:59] <shewolf{AF|MsJ}> yepper raven{Az} and she also needed therapy and i got it for her and she is well today
[19:59] <marlene> Things went from bad to worse, with me feeling at one point like ending my own life. It was at this point i decided i just couldn't continue the relationship.
[20:00] <AAhhzz> Ouch marlene.....Sorry to hear that....
[20:00] <cajunrose> and that was a very healthy step for you marlene
[20:00] <cajunrose> to take control of your life back
[20:00] <cajunrose> even if it meant going through the pain of ending that relationship
[20:00] * munchkin{JAL}-ys nods to marlene iv'e been there
[20:00] <cajunrose> from it you found what you needed to ask up front in the future
[20:01] <marlene> This has left me with a lot of questions about my own nature and has brough out a lot of old issues.
[20:01] <cajunrose> so you did grow
[20:01] * shewolf{AF|MsJ} hugs marlene
[20:01] <raven{Az}> you made the right choice marlene, to end the relationship. Like Matser Nemesys says, I am one that believes that a bdsm relationship, specially a master/slave relationship, has to be built on the strengths of the people involved, rather than the weaknesses
[20:01] <munchkin{JAL}-ys> thats a tough place to find your way back from
[20:01] <cajunrose> just some of it was very painful
[20:01] <Aaron> i think knowing what to expect from both sides is important
[20:01] <raven{Az}> built on the strengths, the relationsihp has a better chance of survival. if the relationship causes harm to any participant, then it needs to end.'
[20:01] <shewolf{AF|MsJ}> i concur completely
[20:01] <cajunrose> and thus Aaron all of the talking
[20:01] <cajunrose> negotiating
[20:01] <raven{Az}> I tend to see a difference between m/s and d/s...not many see that difference
[20:01] <cajunrose> all of that is "learning"
[20:02] <cajunrose> or it worked that way for Storm and i
[20:02] <Stormdncr> a house built on weakness will crumble and fall. one built on strength will withstand most, if not all.
[20:02] <cajunrose> i think there is raven{Az}
[20:02] <Nemesys> Do you have a 1-sentence explaination of the difference, raven?
[20:02] <munchkin{JAL}-ys> i think theres a difference
[20:02] <cajunrose> but the commitment in d/s can be similar to m/s
[20:03] <shewolf{AF|MsJ}> yes Stormdncr that is so true
[20:03] <Aaron> i see the differances
[20:03] <raven{Az}> I can try Master Nemesys
[20:03] * raven{Az} thinks for a moment..
[20:04] <shewolf{AF|MsJ}> we have been together 24 years 5 months
[20:04] <shewolf{AF|MsJ}> in rl me and Beverly
[20:04] <Nemesys> I've often thought that the difference is that a d/s relationship has a primary focus upon the needs and limitations of the submissive, while a m/s relationship's primary focus is on the needs and limitations of the Master.
[20:04] <raven{Az}> the main difference in m/s versus d/s tends to be around the focus of the relationship..the focus being more on the dominant than the slave..as well as focus on service, rather than play.
[20:04] <raven{Az}> that's a simple explanation..but good enough
[20:05] <Nemesys> Works for me :-)
[20:05] * munchkin{JAL}-ys nods
[20:05] <raven{Az}> much better said than my words Master Nemesys..thank you! :)
[20:05] <raven{Az}> we ready for myth 2?
[20:05] <cajunrose> yeppers
[20:05] <raven{Az}> kk
[20:05] * raven{Az} begins pasting..
[20:05] <raven{Az}> Myth 2: Slaves are actually abuse victims who take any and every thing their owner dishes out.
[20:06] <shewolf{AF|MsJ}> i play a lot with my Bev and my girls not just service as we have both D/s and Mistress/sub relationship
[20:06] <raven{Az}> Truth: It is true that abuse exists. It is also true that abuse exists in bdsm. Further it is true that many slaves have been abuse victims at some point in their lives. It is NOT true however, that all slaves in
[20:06] * raven{Az} sees a difference between subs and slaves as well shewolf{AF|MsJ}..
[20:06] * shewolf{AF|MsJ} nods
[20:06] <raven{Az}> master / slave relationships are current victims of abuse. There are many differences between an abusive relationship and an m/s one. As well as differences between a slave and a victim of abuse.
[20:07] <raven{Az}> The most important difference between a victim and a slave is CONSENT. In an abusive relationship, the victim is not informed beforehand that their partner is going to abuse them.
[20:07] <raven{Az}> They do not discuss what kinds of abuse will be used or anything else along those lines. Therefore the victim gives no consent to the actions of the abuser. For slaves there are discussions
[20:08] <raven{Az}> of what will be expected, what kinds (if any) of b/d or s/m activities might or will take place, what the rules will be, how the owner will enforce these rules and so much more.
[20:08] <raven{Az}> All of these discussions are designed to give the slave the information they need to make an informed choice to consent or not consent. These discussions are also intended to prevent abuse
[20:08] <raven{Az}> . through consent, determining compatibility, determining goals, and informing each participant of any issues
[20:09] <raven{Az}> that could affect the relationship and more. The whole point is to learn if a relationship between those specific people will be a healthy and fulfilling one for them.
[20:09] <raven{Az}> Myth 2A: A slave has no say in what her limitations are.
[20:09] <raven{Az}> It is true that once a collar is accepted a slave is then expected to accept whatever the owner chooses to do. However, this is directly impacted by the
[20:10] <raven{Az}> numerous discussions before the collar and the continued communication that takes place after the collar. In a dominant/submissive relationship, the submissive is allowed (and expected)
[20:10] <raven{Az}> to set limits on what the dominant can or can’t do. This is not true for most slaves. However, it is expected for the slave to inform their owner of any
[20:10] <raven{Az}> condition or situation that affects how they will receive and respond to the owner’s actions. But the final decision of what actions to take or not to take is up to the owner.
[20:11] <raven{Az}> A slave should be sure they fully understand and can accept what the owner will (or might) do, and what the owner is capable of BEFORE a collar is
[20:11] <raven{Az}> placed. The owner sets any limits, so it is imperative that a slave submit to an owner whose limits closely (or exactly) match their own. In this way, the
[20:11] <raven{Az}> owner’s limits extend to the slave and the slave does not have to set the limits themselves (yes it is a tiny distinction, but an important one).
[20:11] <raven{Az}> There is a great significance built upon the foundation of trust. The slave needs to have that assurance that the owner has been honest in his/her discussion of his nature.
[20:12] <raven{Az}> Some m/s relationships use contracts to spell out what is expected by each person, what is or is not accepted and more. These contracts often include guidelines for the slave to follow if they want release
[20:12] <raven{Az}> or if the owner starts to do unsafe things. Some areas can be compromised on, if the owner is willing to do so. (Some owners are not willing to compromise.) Things like clothing choices, toy preferences, types of play that need to be worked
[20:13] <raven{Az}> up to/introduced slowly and similar things can be compromised on. Other things such as sexual preferences, monogamy, polygamy and anything else that is
[20:13] <raven{Az}> a true NEED for the person, should not be compromised on as doing so usually leads to a bad ending.
[20:13] <raven{Az}> end of myth 2...questions or comments please?>
[20:13] <cajunrose> i agree
[20:14] <cajunrose> and i am very impressed with how you stated that
[20:14] <cajunrose> very clear
[20:14] * Nemesys nods
[20:14] <cajunrose> about abuse is not consesual
[20:14] <raven{Az}> thank you cajunrose
[20:14] * Aaron nods
[20:14] <raven{Az}> that is the major difference between abuse and bdsm relationships of any sort...consent
[20:14] <cajunrose> and the need to set the the "parts" of the relationship
[20:14] <raven{Az}> a victim does not consent to being abused..
[20:14] <cajunrose> before the collar
[20:14] <marlene> oh boy.... i can see so clearly now where i messed up big time..
[20:14] * raven{Az} nods
[20:15] <shewolf{AF|MsJ}> raven{Az} my joselyn and I always discuss things constantly as we like to talk and see where she’d like to explore and she knows my history and knows there is a point I will never cross and accepts that
[20:15] <raven{Az}> you aren't alone marlene..I was not new to bdsm and I still messed up big time.
[20:15] <cajunrose> which is why we wanted you to be here marlene
[20:15] <cajunrose> i thought you would get a lot out of this discussion
[20:15] * AAhhzz grins at marlene....Your in good company marlene...Lots of people, both submisives and Dominants have made that error.....
[20:16] <cajunrose> oh yea
[20:16] <cajunrose> been there
[20:16] <cajunrose> done that
[20:16] <raven{Az}> yes..continued communication is a must..it helps participants see where things stand, and where they'd like to go..what works, what doesn't..etc etc
[20:16] <cajunrose> and burnt the T-shirts
[20:16] * Stormdncr nods
[20:16] <marlene> yeesh... so many things i now see that were just wrong to begin with, but being new, i didn't see...
[20:16] * AAhhzz hands cajunrose my t-shirt.....since she burnt hers up
[20:16] * munchkin{JAL}-ys nods nods nods
[20:16] <Stormdncr> hey now..I like her having no tshirts. *gryns*
[20:16] * Nemesys shields my eyes
[20:16] * Stormdncr waggles his eyebrows
[20:16] <raven{Az}> that is the main reason I created LnR marlene..and why I try so hard to write essays...to help those who are new to learn ..hopefully to help them before they make those mistakes
[20:17] <marlene> Heck i even read and read and read stuff on-line, but still just missed the clues, somehow.
[20:17] <raven{Az}> also
[20:17] <raven{Az}> to help them correct mistakes already made..realize they are not alone...
[20:17] <raven{Az}> its easy to miss the clues marlene...the abuser makes everything the victim's fault...a submissive nature makes that so much easier to do also..
[20:17] <munchkin{JAL}-ys> yeppers now munchies never alone
[20:17] <shewolf{AF|MsJ}> i made a mistake too and wow it was a big one
[20:17] <AAhhzz> LOL Stormdncr
[20:17] <raven{Az}> a submissive person is more apt to take blame for everything..to accept that they are the one who is wrong..
[20:17] <Stormdncr> marlene, it happens to everyone at one point or another. even some seasoned dinosaurs get snookered, especially where emotions are involved
[20:17] <cajunrose> so raven{Az} since you and i have both been in horrid relationships
[20:18] <cajunrose> and are now in ones where we are blooming
[20:18] <cajunrose> is that the communications?
[20:18] <raven{Az}> they are less apt to demand healthy treatment..specially when the abuser uses the "a real slave/sub would..!!" argument..
[20:18] <cajunrose> the taking the time to go slow?
[20:18] * raven{Az} nods nods nods..I agree Stormdncr
[20:18] <raven{Az}> I believe the communications is part of it yes cajunrose..
[20:18] <AAhhzz> We do Stormdncr?.....
[20:18] <raven{Az}> but
[20:18] * AAhhzz looks at raven wondering if she is snookering me...
[20:18] <Stormdncr> lol
[20:19] <raven{Az}> I believe also that the ability to learn from our mistakes, and to learn from even the worst situation has helped as well
[20:19] * munchkin{JAL}-ys giggles
[20:19] * Stormdncr gryns
[20:19] <raven{Az}> for all the horrible things I learned in Arizona..I have to admit that I also learned many good things..such as better self control of my temper..
[20:19] <shewolf{AF|MsJ}> yepper raven{Az} i have
[20:19] <cajunrose> some times raven{Az}
[20:19] <raven{Az}> being able to see both the bad and the good..makes a major difference..
[20:19] <cajunrose> i think the painful lessons
[20:19] <cajunrose> we learn the most from
[20:19] * raven{Az} listens..
[20:19] <raven{Az}> yes
[20:19] <cajunrose> if we look to learn
[20:19] <Aaron> a good Dominant/Master admits his/her mistakes which are in my opinion the makings of a good Dominant/Master
[20:19] <cajunrose> and not just be bitter
[20:19] <marlene> Well, hopefully this new relationship i am working on will turn out much better. So far, so good.
[20:19] <cajunrose> or forever the "victim"
[20:20] <cajunrose> yes Aaron
[20:20] <cajunrose> the first thing Storm told me
[20:20] <munchkin{JAL}-ys> i agree Master
[20:20] * AAhhzz smiles...Attitude is everything at times isn’t it cajunrose?
[20:20] <cajunrose> was not to put him on a pedestal
[20:20] <raven{Az}> the victim mentality is a hard thing to break..so many people are taught to always be the victim..and society upholds that view..
[20:20] <cajunrose> i think so AAhhzz
[20:20] <raven{Az}> everything is someone else's fault..personal responsiblity and accountability are not as common as they should be now a days
[20:21] <munchkin{JAL}-ys> i think it also helps build trust when a Dom can say im sorry or i made a mistake
[20:21] <raven{Az}> I agree Master Aaron
[20:21] <raven{Az}> I hope to marlene..and anything I can do..please let me know..I like to help :)
[20:21] <cajunrose> i know it does with me munchkin{JAL}-ys
[20:21] <Stormdncr> mistakes are not failures. They are learning tools. As long as you can remember and learn from it and grow.
[20:21] <Aaron> thank you raven{Az} cajunrose and munchie
[20:21] <raven{Az}> good thing to tell you cajunrose..putting a dominant on a pedestal (or anyone for that matter) is not a good idea..
[20:21] <raven{Az}> we are all human..we all make mistakes..
[20:21] <shewolf{AF|MsJ}> yes Aaron i aggree and my subs and slave can tell me if i made a mistake so i can correct it
[20:21] <raven{Az}> pedestals just don't hold up well with humans on them LOL
[20:22] <shewolf{AF|MsJ}> i know i am human and can do make errors
[20:22] <cajunrose> true raven{Az}
[20:22] <cajunrose> and i think
[20:22] <shewolf{AF|MsJ}> nope raven{Az}
[20:22] <cajunrose> if the dominant
[20:22] <cajunrose> can openly say they are not god
[20:22] <Aaron> me just speaking as a man can say it's hard to admit when your wrong
[20:22] <cajunrose> they are human
[20:22] <cajunrose> it builds the trust
[20:22] <Stormdncr> yeah, getting up on those pedestals may give a good view...but daaaayam does it hurt when it's knocked out and you fall to the ground *G*
[20:23] <cajunrose> needed for good communications
[20:23] <shewolf{AF|MsJ}> yes cajunrose
[20:23] <shewolf{AF|MsJ}> communications is always good and important to any relationship
[20:23] <cajunrose> i think it is Aaron for you guys
[20:23] <cajunrose> like Storm says
[20:23] <raven{Az}> I have found that those who can honestly admit they are human and make mistakes are usually good dominants..key words being honestly admit..
[20:24] <cajunrose> it can give ammo at the wrong relationships
[20:24] <cajunrose> and be viewed as weak
[20:24] <raven{Az}> some are real good at saying the right things..it is how they get into a relationship..reel in their victims..
[20:24] <cajunrose> and not just being human
[20:24] <munchkin{JAL}-ys> i also think that a Master punishes for growth and an abuser just hurts to achieve his own goals
[20:24] <shewolf{AF|MsJ}> i am honest and will never lie to my girls or Mistresses
[20:24] <AAhhzz> You mean my faked sincerity "Sorries" aren’t cutting it raven?
[20:25] * AAhhzz winks
[20:25] <raven{Az}> LOL Master...nope..I can see through them..
[20:25] * munchkin{JAL}-ys rolls her eyes
[20:25] * raven{Az} winks back..
[20:25] * Stormdncr gryns
[20:25] <AAhhzz> Drats
[20:25] <raven{Az}> you make a cute brat Master dearest
[20:25] * Stormdncr rolls the eyes back to munchkin{JAL}-ys
[20:25] * munchkin{JAL}-ys nods nods nods to raven
[20:25] * Aaron chuckles
[20:25] * AAhhzz chuckles....myth 3?
[20:25] * munchkin{JAL}-ys giggles
[20:25] <Stormdncr> ready, raven?
[20:25] <cajunrose> so anything else before myth 3?
[20:25] <raven{Az}> yes Master Stormdncr..
[20:25] <munchkin{JAL}-ys> i also think that a Master punishes for growth and an abuser just hurts to achieve his own goals
[20:26] <raven{Az}> yes munchkin
[20:26] <raven{Az}> a dominant punishes/disciplines for growth..an abuser beats to subjugate..to gain obedience through fear..
[20:26] <raven{Az}> that is not submission
[20:26] <shewolf{AF|MsJ}> as a Mistress i seldom punish as i talk to my girls and they talk to me and if they make an error i call them aside and talk to them in pm and hold them as a sub or slave punishes themselves far worse than a Dominant ever could
[20:26] <raven{Az}> if one's submission is coming from fear of the dominant and his reaction..then something is seriuosly wrong..and that is different from fear of punishment
[20:27] <raven{Az}> punishment is a differnet topic shewolf{AF|MsJ}..I hope we can discuss it at a later date..:)
[20:27] * raven{Az} starts pasting myth 3
[20:27] <shewolf{AF|MsJ}> yes raven{Az}
[20:28] <raven{Az}> Myth 3: Slaves cannot take care of themselves and want an owner because they believe having one will solve all of their problems and the owner will take care of everything for them.
[20:29] <raven{Az}> Truth: Unfortunately I cannot say that this is completely false because there are people out there who are exactly this way. I can say that this is most commonly seen in people who are very new to bdsm,
[20:29] <raven{Az}> with little or no experience, and have emotional or psychological issues that make it difficult for them to care for themselves. This is not restricted to just bdsm
[20:29] <raven{Az}> relationships either. It is also known in purely vanilla relationships as the Knight In Shining Armor Syndrome. It is also true that people who are like this are the
[20:29] <raven{Az}> minority, not the majority. The truth of the matter is, this just does not work and is untrue for the vast majority of slaves.
[20:30] <raven{Az}> Slaves must be capable people. First and foremost they must be able to take care of themselves. A person cannot take care of someone else unless they can care for themselves first. Many slaves have a lot of responsibilities. Some are
[20:31] <raven{Az}> required to do budgets, take care of the house, and/or assist their owners with a small business. Some have less complicated responsibilities, but regardless of what the specific responsibilities are the basic fact remains the same.
[20:31] <raven{Az}> The slave is expected and required to fulfill those responsibilities to their owner’s satisfaction. In some cases, slaves are required to take classes and learn how to do something their owner wants them to do.
[20:32] <raven{Az}> The slave’s goal is to please their owner. To be able to meet that goal, a slave has to be able to take care of himself or herself to ensure they will be able to take care of their owner and their responsibilities.
[20:32] <raven{Az}> An m/s relationship does make some things easier. For example, the division of power is very clear, resulting in fewer power struggles (with a preference that there are none at all).
[20:33] <raven{Az}> This is easier than a vanilla relationship where power struggles are more frequent over such things as “Whose money is it?” “who takes out the trash?” and other subjects that are clouded by the expectation of full equality.
[20:33] <raven{Az}> Having an owner does fix some things such as the desire to serve. An owner gives the slave someone to serve, thus satisfying this need and “fixing” any confusion or need to suppress it. However,
[20:33] <raven{Az}> other issues such as low self-esteem, depression and similar issues cannot be fixed by an m/s relationship and in many cases an m/s relationship will worsen those issues.
[20:34] <raven{Az}> Being owned is not a solution to life’s problems and issues. It is a relationship and thus adds issues of its own to whatever issues already exist in a person’s life.
[20:34] <raven{Az}> end of myth 3..
[20:36] <Aaron> i personally be hovering over all the time but still know the respect is there and knowing that the task at hand would still be fulfilled at the best of the abilities of the slave
[20:37] <Stormdncr> I tend be a hands on person and sometimes it's hard to not get involved when rose is doing some work *chuckles*
[20:38] * raven{Az} looks at the clock
[20:38] <shewolf{AF|MsJ}> my gf was needy as i rescued her...i will not go into details...and she and i been a strength for each other and as i helped her ahe also helped me a great and we both are stronger for it
[20:39] <raven{Az}> for the convenience of everyone...I was thinking it might be a good idea, since this essay is a long one, to split it into two nights..do the first 4 myths tonight..and the last 4 another night.
[20:39] <raven{Az}> would that work for everyone?
[20:39] <AAhhzz> Sounds like it worked out well for you both shewolf{AF|MsJ} congadulations
[20:39] <marlene> my biggest problem seems to be that i always want to be doing something for someone... i am i guess very service minded... Just give me Something to do!
[20:39] <shewolf{AF|MsJ}> yes i think so
[20:39] <raven{Az}> I don't want to overwhelm or confuse people.
[20:39] <cajunrose> i think that is great raven{Az}
[20:40] <cajunrose> that way we get you here another night
[20:40] <cajunrose> and for the myth 3
[20:40] <raven{Az}> it seems to me shewolf that a healthy relationship of any sort results that way..in each person growing and becoming stronger because of the relationship. I think it is wonderful that you have such with your gf.
[20:40] <cajunrose> i don't think i would ever had a strong and good relationship
[20:40] <cajunrose> if i had not come to the conclusion
[20:40] <cajunrose> that i could live alone
[20:40] <raven{Az}> I have that issue also marlene..its gotten me into many sticky situations LOL
[20:40] <cajunrose> take care of myself
[20:40] <cajunrose> and be "happy"
[20:40] <raven{Az}> okay rose..:)
[20:41] <raven{Az}> that is what it takes for some people rose...
[20:41] <cajunrose> and that marlene was very hard for me to get too
[20:41] <cajunrose> now i don't even know the pw to the bank account
[20:41] <raven{Az}> I didn't need to prove that I could live on my own..I just needed to know that I could if I had to.
[20:41] <cajunrose> i tell Storm he better leave me notes just in case of an emerg.
[20:41] <raven{Az}> by living on my own..prove it by living on my own I mean..sorry to confuse it
[20:42] <cajunrose> i understood
[20:42] <cajunrose> for me it was a time out
[20:42] <cajunrose> to find me
[20:42] <Stormdncr> I got what ya meant, raven{Az}
[20:42] <shewolf{AF|MsJ}> ty raven{Az} and wow because of my caring for her me we now have a 3 yo as she had invitro fertilization using a reputable sperm bank that's why we trade places back in august 26 2001
[20:42] <cajunrose> and from that grew a much healthier relationship
[20:42] <Aaron> i like a thinking slave myself
[20:42] <raven{Az}> I have found that slaves who know themselves well..who they are..what they want and need etc. are often the happiest
[20:42] * munchkin{JAL}-ys also had to take one of those time outs
[20:43] <marlene> i do live on my own, with an 8 year old son that i have custody of...
[20:43] <raven{Az}> you are a strong person marlene...I hope you realize that. :)
[20:43] <cajunrose> yes marlene
[20:43] <shewolf{AF|MsJ}> yepper marlene i agree with raven{Az}
[20:44] <cajunrose> ad by knowing you can do that
[20:44] <cajunrose> you are stronger
[20:44] <cajunrose> and know what you want now in a Master
[20:44] <raven{Az}> we're going to do myth 4..then stop and finish another night..so people aren't here all night..
[20:44] <Aaron> good idea raven{Az}
[20:44] <raven{Az}> any other questions on myth 3?
[20:47] * raven{Az} begins pasting myth 4
[20:48] <raven{Az}> Myth 4: Slaves are stupid and incapable of identifying their own wants/needs.
[20:48] <raven{Az}> Truth: It cannot be said that all slaves have a superior intellect, nor can it be said (truthfully) that all slaves are stupid. Logically speaking since both kinds of human intelligence exist, the same variations
[20:49] <raven{Az}> are found in slaves. However, less intelligent slaves have been rare in my experiences. I have seen slaves pretending to be stupid due to some mistaken belief that it makes them a better slave.
[20:49] <raven{Az}> This is not true. Often, these are people who are new to bdsm and master/slave with little experience. Slaves must be intelligent because they are often relied upon to handle many of life’s day-to-day
[20:50] <raven{Az}> aspects and to do so without constant supervision and directions. This requires problem-solving skills and extensive knowledge of how their owner prefers things to be. Slaves also need
[20:50] <raven{Az}> strong observation skills so they can learn what pleases their owner without them having to explain every tiny detail. Slaves are expected to learn quickly and to put
[20:50] <raven{Az}> their knowledge into practice on a consistent basis. Intelligence is required for these things and more.
[20:50] <raven{Az}> A slave’s intelligence coupled with their strengths, individuality and self-
[20:51] <raven{Az}> reliance direct effects their ability to identify their own wants and needs and to separate them properly. Speaking on an basic level, people only need those things that sustain life (food, clothing, shelter and intellectual stimulation), and everything else is a want.
[20:51] <raven{Az}> A slave must be able to tell the difference between things they truly need and things they want. This can be very hard to do, but with practice can be done. Someone with little intelligence,
[20:52] <raven{Az}> minimal self-awareness, and a lack of mental or emotional strength has a very hard time differentiating between the two. A slave who sees everything as an urgent need quickly frustrates their owner. This puts the slave’s focus on them
[20:53] <raven{Az}> selves over their owner and m/s will not work that way. Slaves are expected to inform their owner when a need arises and many also like to be aware of a slave’s wants as well. Most owners want to meet their slave’s needs because
[20:53] <raven{Az}> they know that needs must be met in order to kept he slave at their best. Many will try to meet a slave’s wants as well, often as a reward or because they
[20:54] <raven{Az}> love the slave or any other number of reasons. Owners are not mind readers, so it is up to the slave to be able to recognize wants vs. needs and inform their owner.
[20:54] <raven{Az}> end of myth 4..
[20:54] <raven{Az}> any questions or comments please?
[20:55] <cajunrose> yea
[20:55] <raven{Az}> okey dokey
[20:55] <cajunrose> so all of this comes down
[20:55] <cajunrose> to a lot of myths
[20:55] <raven{Az}> yes'
[20:55] <cajunrose> that give m/s a bad name?
[20:55] <raven{Az}> yes
[20:56] <cajunrose> ok here is the kicker for most ppl
[20:56] <raven{Az}> basicaly that bad name being..abuse
[20:56] <Aaron> i personally want someone with intelligence around some one to talk with get advice from
[20:56] <raven{Az}> okay
[20:56] <marlene> Hmmm i do remember reading somewhere that a slave said that she might want a hot fudge sundae everyday, but didn't need one. LOL i think this helped put things into focus for me as to need vs. want.
[20:56] <cajunrose> i was "enslaved" for over 20 years
[20:56] <cajunrose> so i have trouble with the term slave
[20:56] <raven{Az}> yes marlene..:)
[20:56] <cajunrose> but is my committment the same
[20:56] <cajunrose> if i agree with what i am hearing here?
[20:56] <raven{Az}> yes rose it is..
[20:57] <raven{Az}> the thing is..so many see the word slave as a bad thing...a bad word..it has negative connotations placed upon it through history and through abusive relationships
[20:57] <Aaron> want a slave who knows their wants and needs and can learn the differance between them and learn to commutcate them to me
[20:57] <AAhhzz> Yeah......By making up these myths "Normal" people get to pigeon hole us and thus not have to actually Think about us as individuals just meeting our needs....They don’t have to even consider the thought that these might be Needs for us because they would upset their whole world view....
[20:57] <raven{Az}> but...the word itself is not bad..nor is its definition. an m/s relationship within bdsm, is based on consent, knowledge and all of that..thus it should lose that negative connotation.
[20:57] <raven{Az}> for years I fought calling myself a slave
[20:58] <marlene> hmm just my take but, being "enslaved" is being forced, being a slave is wilingly doing what you are meant to do.
[20:58] <raven{Az}> eventually though I had to realize that my objections were based on negative experiences, rather than on an honest view of who and what i am..
[20:58] <cajunrose> i am getting that tonight raven{Az}
[20:58] <cajunrose> and maybe for the first time
[20:58] <raven{Az}> for me, learning that being a slave is not a bad thing freed me to accept that label and be proud of it
[20:58] * raven{Az} smiles
[20:58] <AAhhzz> Good point marlene!
[20:58] <cajunrose> and yes marelene you are right
[20:58] <Fire-Soul> Personally, I think the only hang up on the word slave comes from the act of enslavement. If the 'enslavement' is by choice because they need, want, and gain a fulfillment from it then does it sound so bad to choose to be a slave?
[20:59] <Nemesys> Because bdsm is such a mentally... interesting... sexuality, I've often thought that the folks involved... on both sides... utilize their gray matter a little more assertively than non-bdsm folks. In other words, I think that most "lifestyle" folks, including (and especially) slaves tend to be smarter than average folks found elsewhere.
[20:59] <raven{Az}> than I am very glad cajunrose..:)
[20:59] <Nemesys> Of course, I may be biased... :-)
[20:59] <raven{Az}> exactly marlene!
[20:59] <raven{Az}> being enslaved is not the same as being a bdsm slave
[20:59] <raven{Az}> they are two different creatures..
[20:59] <cajunrose> yes but Fire-Soul i was enslaved in a bad way
[20:59] <raven{Az}> some similarities exist..yes..but they are not the same
[20:59] <cajunrose> with all of the myths she has discussed tonight
[20:59] <raven{Az}> no Master Fire-Soul..it doesn't..:)
[20:59] <cajunrose> this is clearing up a lot for me
[21:00] <cajunrose> now
[21:00] <cajunrose> i love have boundaries
[21:00] <cajunrose> consistency
[21:00] * AAhhzz grins.... Nemesys, its an old truism that the very intelligent make their own rules.....
[21:00] <cajunrose> it makes me feel whole
[21:00] <cajunrose> so am i sub or slave?
[21:00] <Fire-Soul> I'm sorry you were enslaved in that way cajunrose. But, the term is still the same but the means of which a flower to take your name for instance is held, makes all the difference.
[21:00] <Aaron> enslaved is based on non-consent
[21:00] <cajunrose> something to ponder
[21:00] <Nemesys> Well said, AAhhzz.
[21:01] <Nemesys> It's not easy to unlearn.
[21:01] <shewolf{AF|MsJ}> joselyn knew and knows what she wants and tells me and i do my best to fulfill them happily as we do love each other deeply and she lives in Hong Kong and knows we can never meet in rl
[21:01] <Nemesys> easy
[21:01] <raven{Az}> I am not sure if I can completely agree with that Master Nemesys...however, I do have to agree that those in bdsm do seem to be more aware of themselves, their relationship and all that affects both of those things..
[21:01] <raven{Az}> honestly cajunrose..do you truly want me to answer that?
[21:01] <raven{Az}> be sure you want my answer before saying yes or no
[21:01] <cajunrose> sure raven{Az}
[21:01] <AAhhzz> Very hard.....but it can be done...
[21:01] <cajunrose> i would not ask
[21:01] <raven{Az}> you are a slave cajunrose
[21:01] <Stormdncr> okay, raven, in yer research on all this, in how many of the m/s couples you interviewed or known, was the slave the more intelligent and if they had a career, had the higher and more powerful, so to say, career?
[21:01] <cajunrose> if i did not want honest input
[21:01] <raven{Az}> you focus on Stormdncr's needs before yours..you focus on serving him, pleasing him..
[21:01] <raven{Az}> but
[21:02] <raven{Az}> you do so without losing sight of yourself as a human being..without losing sight of who/what you are and what you *need*...
[21:02] <raven{Az}> you are a slave and have been as long as I've known you
[21:02] * Fire-Soul smiles
[21:02] <raven{Az}> that was an interesting facet Stormdncr...many were..not all, but many
[21:02] <raven{Az}> I'd say about 3/4
[21:02] <AAhhzz> Perhaps because there IS a need for the honesty in a BDSM relationship.....you eventually have to look in all the little corners and dark closets of your mind to really Know what you want and why you want it....
[21:02] * Stormdncr nods
[21:03] <raven{Az}> but I know other people's experience are different in that area Master Stormdncr..
[21:03] <cajunrose> i was born submissive but my job developed to be decision ridden, fast thinking and actions
[21:03] <cajunrose> i think my submission
[21:03] <cajunrose> was a must to balance my life
[21:03] <shewolf{AF|MsJ}> honesty and trust is the keystone of a M/s or BDSM or D/s relationship
[21:03] <raven{Az}> those are qualities that work just as well in submission cajunrose..:)
[21:03] * Aaron agrees with AAhhzz
[21:03] <cajunrose> very good point Aaron
[21:03] <raven{Az}> it is the key to any successful relationship shewolf..bdsm or not
[21:03] <raven{Az}> I agree Master
[21:03] <shewolf{AF|MsJ}> yepper raven{Az}
[21:04] <Stormdncr> very true AAhhzz
[21:04] <shewolf{AF|MsJ}> 2without either or both the relationship is doomed
[21:04] <cajunrose> when Storm and i first moved in together
[21:04] <cajunrose> one of the hardest things for me to do
[21:04] <Stormdncr> sometimes, it scares the hell out of someone to delve that deep into themselves
[21:04] <cajunrose> was obey him in sitting
[21:04] <cajunrose> and looking eye to eye
[21:05] <cajunrose> and really gut wrenching talking
[21:05] <cajunrose> i had never had that before
[21:05] <cajunrose> and i was Way out of my comfort zone
[21:05] <AAhhzz> Only sometimes Stormdncr?....LOL....Its Scary back there!
[21:05] <raven{Az}> yes it does Master Stormdncr...some just can't face searching into themselves that deeply. However, I believe that for a bdsm relationship to work, such deep self awareness and self introspection is neccessary
[21:05] <raven{Az}> LOL Master
[21:05] <Stormdncr> LOl
[21:06] * shewolf{AF|MsJ} smiles as she knows good communications is the 3rd keystone in any relationship
[21:06] <Stormdncr> True, AAhhzz....*G*...I see the monsters running when I start delving at times, scared at what they see in there *G*
[21:06] <Aaron> on both you get what you put into it from Master or slave
[21:06] <marlene> ah, for me, having to look anyone in the eyes is WAY unconfortable! has always been a confrontation thing for me...
[21:06] * AAhhzz nods....Its the place where dragons be.....but if you really Need to know yourself...sooner or later you have to go
[21:06] <raven{Az}> I agree Master Aaron
[21:07] <raven{Az}> that is a hard thing to overcome marlene..I still have a hard time making eye contact..specially when I have messed up
[21:07] * Aaron nods to raven{Az}
[21:07] * Stormdncr nods...true, AAhhzz, very true.
[21:07] <Nemesys> Agreed, AAhhzz. As Jung said, "To confront a person with his shadow is to show him his own light".
[21:07] <Aaron> so does munchie raven{Az}
[21:08] <AAhhzz> Ohh,,,Nice phrase there Nemesys,,,,,
[21:08] * AAhhzz files that .0ne for future use
[21:08] * Stormdncr snags it for a tag line *G*
[21:08] <marlene> Ack! the ole trick my mom use to use was a very nasty cold stare that litterly made one's skin crawl...
[21:08] <shewolf{AF|MsJ}> i always like eye contact and it is good to have that so i encourage it especially when someone has been damaged in some way
[21:08] <raven{Az}> ohhh I hate that stare LOL
[21:08] <raven{Az}> my kids hate my "mommy stare" too
[21:09] <munchkin{JAL}-ys> raven{Az} sometimes uses the "mommy look" lol
[21:09] <Aaron> there has been alot of different slavery mostly bad kinds but every slavery has it kind
[21:09] <raven{Az}> bdsm slavery is not the same as historical slavery
[21:09] <raven{Az}> there are major differneces..that make all the difference in the world
[21:09] <marlene> Add to that the ole "Drill Sergeant voice" and you get a good idea of what can still make me cringe even at 47!
[21:09] <raven{Az}> first comes..consent
[21:09] <shewolf{AF|MsJ}> i always use a warm friendly stare when we talk so i don't scare one that was hurt
[21:09] <raven{Az}> we CHOOSE to be slaves..we CHOOSE to submit to someone..to give up all control to them..
[21:09] <munchkin{JAL}-ys> its horrid cause you know shes right and theres just nothing to say to that look lol
[21:09] <raven{Az}> that alone makes it different from historical slavery..we are not forced to do it..
[21:10] <AAhhzz> Yeah.....I cant get raven to pick cotton at all...course it would help if I had a cotton field......
[21:10] * AAhhzz winks at raven
[21:10] <raven{Az}> LOL Master
[21:10] <Stormdncr> lol
[21:10] <shewolf{AF|MsJ}> marlene a gentle soothing healing voice works better trust this old girl i am 50 yo btw
[21:10] <cajunrose> but the eye to eye discussions
[21:10] <cajunrose> that you grow from
[21:10] <cajunrose> and come to feel comfortable with
[21:10] <cajunrose> for me was freeing
[21:10] <cajunrose> now in trouble
[21:10] <Aaron> which world history slavery is what everyone was taught in school so when the word slave is said it refers back to take in most cases
[21:11] <cajunrose> that is a whole different story
[21:11] <raven{Az}> some work with a gentle voice yes shewolf..but some need the intensity also
[21:11] <Fire-Soul> There is something else that never existed in forced slavery. Personal and mutual growth is a part of m/s.
[21:11] <raven{Az}> for me, sometimes I just *need* that intensity...it is an instant reminder of who I am and changes my mindset real fast..
[21:11] <raven{Az}> yes Master Fire-Soul..exactly
[21:11] <shewolf{AF|MsJ}> yes raven{Az} true hon
[21:11] * AAhhzz nods to cajunrose....It is in those deep discussions that one gets to know another...and oddly enough themselves as well....
[21:12] <raven{Az}> it often helps me get out of a mindset that I don't want to be in..or am having trouble getting out of
[21:12] <shewolf{AF|MsJ}> i agree AAhhzz
[21:12] <raven{Az}> sometimes it is hard to switch from Mommy to slave..
[21:12] <raven{Az}> that *look* or tone of voice from Master helps me with that
[21:12] <AAhhzz> Oh yeah Fire....in the enforced slavery most owners didn’t care ( nor wanted ) their slaves to learn and grow....
[21:12] * shewolf{AF|MsJ} nods
[21:13] <Stormdncr> knowledge was power, and to keep them from learning or growing, kept them powerless
[21:13] <raven{Az}> all they cared about Master was obedience and how much the slave earned for them
[21:13] <Stormdncr> where as in the m/s bdsm relationships, the more knowledge, the more you grow..
[21:13] * AAhhzz smiles at raven....Oddly enough I enjoy helping you make that change....LOL
[21:13] <raven{Az}> its not the same in bdsm..and so many have a hard time making that transition
[21:14] <shewolf{AF|MsJ}> i love growing and learning that's one thing we never do is stop learning and willing to grow more
[21:14] <AAhhzz> And the more the slave grows the better a person they are and thus more capable of serving thier masters/mistresses
[21:14] * raven{Az} winks to her Master..I know Master
[21:14] <raven{Az}> I agree shewolf
[21:14] <Nemesys> Sounds like win-win to me.
[21:14] <Stormdncr> the better the slave is, the better the master/mistress is
[21:15] <shewolf{AF|MsJ}> yes and as the Dom/me grows as well the relationship becomes even richer
[21:15] <Stormdncr> each reflects on the other
[21:15] <raven{Az}> Master DarkCzar helped me edit this essay..and I appreciate all his help :)
[21:15] <Fire-Soul> As an Owner, I think some of the greatest joy can be helping to shape and show a slave new places with in them. Further more, to also learn and see places we the Owner's hadn't thought to look at ourselves.
[21:15] <shewolf{AF|MsJ}> yes Fire-Soul
[21:16] <Stormdncr> very true, Fire-Soul
[21:16] <raven{Az}> well said Master Fire-Soul
[21:16] <shewolf{AF|MsJ}> very well said
[21:18] <munchkin{JAL}-ys> yea that drill sergeant routine never worked for me either
[21:19] * AAhhzz grins...Oddly enough the Drill sergeant works Really Really well for me.....I just use it very sparingly
[21:19] <munchkin{JAL}-ys> but when i have a Master who is honest and the tone and look are there you cant help but snap to where you need to be

[21:20] <shewolf{AF|MsJ}> and i don't like the drill sergeant routine either i am too much like a wolf and lost a few Mistresses online as they couldn't handle my impendence nor my mind nor will
[21:21] <munchkin{JAL}-ys> no offense Master AAhhzz but when a Master calmly talks and is straight up with me I’m alot more apt to get more from the discussion
[21:21] <shewolf{AF|MsJ}> there are only 3 that tamed me but i will never be domesticated as i am a Switch and need the Domme side as i need my sub side
[21:22] <AAhhzz> Oh none taken munchkin{JAL}-ys.....Was refering to the children......
[21:22] <AAhhzz> When I speak with raven I tend to be Very soft spoken....in fact the more trouble she is in the more softly I speak....
[21:23] <raven{Az}> Master gets very soft spoken when he is upset..he almost never yells
[21:23] <cajunrose> ah yes
[21:23] <raven{Az}> in fact..in the 5 years I have been here..he has only yelled 3 or 4 times..
[21:23] <AAhhzz> If she sees my lips moving but no sound coming out she knows she is in Deep trouble.....
[21:23] <cajunrose> raven{Az}
[21:23] <cajunrose> i know that well
[21:23] <shewolf{AF|MsJ}> oh raven{Az} 1 think when my time serving my gf is up we will be Switching places every 3 months
[21:23] <cajunrose> if Storm gets quiet even in channel
[21:23] <munchkin{JAL}-ys> see and with yelling its easier for me to go into defense
[21:23] <cajunrose> or tells someone to call him Sir
[21:23] <cajunrose> i duck
[21:23] <raven{Az}> it is scary sometimes..I am so glad that I have only been in enough trouble for him to be very very soft spoken, twice that i recall
[21:23] * raven{Az} shudders..
[21:23] * raven{Az} nods nods nods..
[21:23] <Nemesys> I don't think that time when you spilled the coffee in his lap should count, raven.
[21:23] <Aaron> his way of letting you know you let him down sort-of-speak
[21:24] <raven{Az}> he insists on "Master" when I have screwed up..and on one occasion, third person speech
[21:24] <raven{Az}> LOL Master Nemesys..it doesn't
[21:24] <raven{Az}> the lying time counted..
[21:24] <cajunrose> and when we let our Masters down
[21:24] <raven{Az}> and the time I threw my collar in his face
[21:24] * raven{Az} still feels bad for both of those
[21:24] <cajunrose> no punishment they give
[21:24] <AAhhzz> LOL Nemesys
[21:24] <munchkin{JAL}-ys> with speaking its hard to get your back up and it makes you look at your actions instead of the "argument"
[21:24] <cajunrose> can match what we do to oursleves
[21:24] <raven{Az}> you're right cajunrose..but sometimes having that punishment allows the slave or sub to forgive themselves
[21:24] <cajunrose> Storm is very careful to say "your action" never "you"
[21:25] * camrynne{N} nods and agrees with cajunrose on that one
[21:25] <raven{Az}> to feel they have "paid" for their mistake..it makes it easier to forgive themselves..
[21:25] <raven{Az}> least..that is how it works for me..and many people I know..
[21:25] <raven{Az}> it doesn't work that way for everyone though :)
[21:25] <Aaron> with munchie if I’m quiet she knows she messed up
[21:25] <cajunrose> ah yea
[21:25] <Aaron> its my way of letting her know
[21:25] * AAhhzz smiles....Your pretty good raven....I rarely have cause to be disappointed in you or upset with your actions...
[21:26] <cajunrose> and raven{Az} punishing myself
[21:26] <cajunrose> never gets me out of Storm doing it too
[21:26] <cajunrose> but he never does in anger
[21:26] <shewolf{AF|MsJ}> i do speak with my girls if they misbehave in private and comfort them i know i feel bad if i misbehaved and hurt worse than any punishment that my Mistress could ever inflict
[21:26] <Aaron> and in some ways considered the punishment
[21:26] <cajunrose> we were just talking about that
[21:26] <raven{Az}> yes Master I know..but then, I am harder on myself than you could ever be..
[21:26] <cajunrose> he always walks around or does somehting if angry
[21:26] <cajunrose> and then we talk
[21:26] * AAhhzz smiles at munchkin{JAL}-ys.....Yes...Defensive....that is a very human response to being yelled at....
[21:26] <cajunrose> like a kid waiting for the parent to come home
[21:27] <shewolf{AF|MsJ}> yes cajunrose that's the best way
[21:27] <raven{Az}> yes cajunrose...we do the same thing :)
[21:27] <cajunrose> oh course
[21:27] <AAhhzz> I myself feel that if I have to Yell to be understood I have already lost their attention.....
[21:27] <cajunrose> i will share one foul up he did
[21:27] <shewolf{AF|MsJ}> i always cool off before talking as it isn't good
[21:27] <raven{Az}> Master lets me go for a drive when I am very upset..because he knows it calms me down and when I return I am usually able to discuss things without losing my temper
[21:27] <cajunrose> ole domly one
[21:28] <cajunrose> it put me in a corner once to "think"
[21:28] <cajunrose> about what i had done
[21:28] <cajunrose> and forgot me
[21:28] <cajunrose> lol
[21:28] <cajunrose> i played that one for weeks
[21:28] * cajunrose looks mischieviously
[21:28] <AAhhzz> Also speaking quietly forces people to pay attention and hopefully keeps that defensive reaction down to a minimum....so they actually Think about what I am saying
[21:29] <Aaron> calming down is a good thing
[21:29] <shewolf{AF|MsJ}> i also let my girls calm down too and if Bev knows i goofed she lets me go and cool off at the firing range or bowling
[21:29] <shewolf{AF|MsJ}> and she also cools off
[21:29] <AAhhzz> LOL cajunrose
[21:30] <cajunrose> well like a kid
[21:30] <raven{Az}> yes it does Master...I know I have had to stop and focus on you when you talk that way..sometimes it heads off my temper..keeps me from losing it..
[21:30] <cajunrose> we have to try to cash in on those things
[21:30] <shewolf{AF|MsJ}> they help as i am irish welsh and have a terrible temper
[21:30] <marlene> For me "Thinking" is the worst kind of punishment ever... i tend to think the worst.
[21:30] <cajunrose> when we first moved in together
[21:30] <cajunrose> i actually had a nick registered
[21:30] <shewolf{AF|MsJ}> esactly marlene
[21:30] <cajunrose> of rose-deepsh-t
[21:30] * AAhhzz winks at raven....See it works.....LOL
[21:30] <raven{Az}> LOL Master...
[21:30] * AAhhzz waves at raven....
[21:30] <cajunrose> ppl would come into channel
[21:30] <raven{Az}> I like it better
[21:31] <AAhhzz> Take Curtis home and come back quickly....I might be asleep if you dont
[21:31] <cajunrose> and say what has rose done
[21:31] <raven{Az}> I hate feeling like I have to hide from my partner...terrified of their reactionary behavior..the violence, either physical or verbal
[21:31] <raven{Az}> yes Master..going

End of Part One